Federal Brass Mag CCI primer 300g Woodleigh soft 80g N160 COAL 3.6" Speed 2525 fps
Federal Brass Mag CCI primer 270g Hornady RN Interlock 82g N160 COAL 3.6" NB This is a compressed load Speed 2580 fps
S
American powders
- Thread starter CarlW
- Start date
Federal Brass Mag CCI primer 300g Woodleigh soft 80g N160 COAL 3.6" Speed 2525 fps
Federal Brass Mag CCI primer 270g Hornady RN Interlock 82g N160 COAL 3.6" NB This is a compressed load Speed 2580 fps
S
If you can.
There's quite a gap between N150 and N160 which IMR and H4350 fit neatly into. I'm not aware of any Euro manufacturer doing research on cowboy action loads like has been done with trailboss or youth loads like has been done with H4895. VV is great for many things esp match 308 etc. but there are some powders that work better in certain calibres and it's a pain to have to change and accept reduced performance.
Had it from a reliable source today,... American produced powders are going to be in the unobtainium bracket before long.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Right ........... here is the current situation AFAIK it.
(1) REACH comes into effect for this group of products on 01.06.2018. Anything delivered and accepted into the country before then is OK and can still be sold and used indefinitely. But on that day, the affected (non-REACH compliant) products lose their CE certification and it becomes an offence to import them into any EU country.
(2) BREXIT makes NO difference at all for the reasons that Edinburgh Rifles gives. Also, all of Europe for the affected marques is supplied via Edgar Brothers in Cheshire. Even if the UK government opted out of REACH unilaterally, Hodgdon would be unlikely to be interested in supplying the UK alone as only one part of this market - which is VERY small overall by US standards anyway.
(3) NOBODY is going to reformulate ANYTHING in the short term and certainly not just for us. The 'bad' ingredients cannot be simply replaced by 'good' ones and you carry on as before. Change anything and you go back to first principles designing a new product. Manufacturers will only reformulate propellants either when the US EPA says they must (and so far no signs of that happening anytime soon or even ever) or the big government and ammunition manufacturing buyers say that they must have 'green' powders for PC reasons. As that would likely cost extra money, the chances of that are modest to nil.
(4) ALL HODGDON BRAND RIFLE POWDERS with the single current exception of H. Lil Gun and the possible second one of CFE223 are REACH non-compliant and therefore lose CE from 1.6.18.
(5) ALL WINCHESTER BRAND POWDERS are REACH non-compliant and therefore lose CE from 1.6.18.
(6) ALL PRE 'ENDURON' IMR BRAND POWDERS are REACH non-compliant and therefore lose CE from 1.6.18.
So to list them, those that are banned for import as of the middle of next year are:
Thales / ADI Mulwala NSW Australia manufactured:
IMR Trail Boss + 8208 XBR
Hodgdon H4198, H322, H. Benchmark, H4895, H. VarGet, H4350, H4831/4831sc, H1000, H. Retumbo, H50BMG
Ball powders manufactured by general Dynamics St. Marks Florida:
Hodgdon H110, H335, H380, H. BL-C(2), H414, US869, Hybrid 100V, H. SuperFORMANCE; H. LeverEVOLUTION
Winchester 748, 760
IMR powders manufactured by General Dynamics Canada, Valleyfield, Quebec Province
IMR 4227, 4198, 3031, 4064, 4895, 4320, 4350, 4831, 7828/7828ssc
(7) Unaffected and remaining are:
Hodgdon L'il Gun and maybe with luck CFE223 (not yet CE certified under the new regulations)
Some Hodgdon shotgun / pistol grades - 700X, 800X, Clays, International, Universal
Hodgdon Pyrodex and other black powder substitutes
New IMR pistol / revolver powders - Red, Target, Green, Unequal, Blue
New IMR 'Enduron' Rifle powders - IMR-4166 (4895/VarGet alternative); IMR-4451 (4350 alternative); IMR-4955 (4831 alternative); IMR-7977 (7828/H1000/Retumbo alternative, also H50BMG / US869 for some applications)
IMR-4166/4451/7977 are here now - and are very good products indeed - 4955 has yet to arrive
Everything from:
Alliant ATK in the Reloder rifle powder series (they are made either by Bofors or Nitrochemie in Europe)
Can't comment on Alliant pistol grades such as Unique - so a question mark there, but they have been reformulated in recent years.
Bofors (Some Alliant and all Norma grades)
Explosia a.s., Czech Republic - Lovex brand extruded and ball powders (previously branded Accurate Arms in the UK)
Nitrochemie Wimmins a.g., Switzerland - Reload Swiss brand powders
PB Clermont, Belgium (part of Eurenco Group) - Ramshot ball powders.
SNPE (various, part of the Eurenco Group) - Vectan extruded (Tu) and ball (SP) powders
Vihtavuori (part of Nammo) - all Vihtavuori 300, 100, and 500 series extruded powders
(1) REACH comes into effect for this group of products on 01.06.2018. Anything delivered and accepted into the country before then is OK and can still be sold and used indefinitely. But on that day, the affected (non-REACH compliant) products lose their CE certification and it becomes an offence to import them into any EU country.
(2) BREXIT makes NO difference at all for the reasons that Edinburgh Rifles gives. Also, all of Europe for the affected marques is supplied via Edgar Brothers in Cheshire. Even if the UK government opted out of REACH unilaterally, Hodgdon would be unlikely to be interested in supplying the UK alone as only one part of this market - which is VERY small overall by US standards anyway.
(3) NOBODY is going to reformulate ANYTHING in the short term and certainly not just for us. The 'bad' ingredients cannot be simply replaced by 'good' ones and you carry on as before. Change anything and you go back to first principles designing a new product. Manufacturers will only reformulate propellants either when the US EPA says they must (and so far no signs of that happening anytime soon or even ever) or the big government and ammunition manufacturing buyers say that they must have 'green' powders for PC reasons. As that would likely cost extra money, the chances of that are modest to nil.
(4) ALL HODGDON BRAND RIFLE POWDERS with the single current exception of H. Lil Gun and the possible second one of CFE223 are REACH non-compliant and therefore lose CE from 1.6.18.
(5) ALL WINCHESTER BRAND POWDERS are REACH non-compliant and therefore lose CE from 1.6.18.
(6) ALL PRE 'ENDURON' IMR BRAND POWDERS are REACH non-compliant and therefore lose CE from 1.6.18.
So to list them, those that are banned for import as of the middle of next year are:
Thales / ADI Mulwala NSW Australia manufactured:
IMR Trail Boss + 8208 XBR
Hodgdon H4198, H322, H. Benchmark, H4895, H. VarGet, H4350, H4831/4831sc, H1000, H. Retumbo, H50BMG
Ball powders manufactured by general Dynamics St. Marks Florida:
Hodgdon H110, H335, H380, H. BL-C(2), H414, US869, Hybrid 100V, H. SuperFORMANCE; H. LeverEVOLUTION
Winchester 748, 760
IMR powders manufactured by General Dynamics Canada, Valleyfield, Quebec Province
IMR 4227, 4198, 3031, 4064, 4895, 4320, 4350, 4831, 7828/7828ssc
(7) Unaffected and remaining are:
Hodgdon L'il Gun and maybe with luck CFE223 (not yet CE certified under the new regulations)
Some Hodgdon shotgun / pistol grades - 700X, 800X, Clays, International, Universal
Hodgdon Pyrodex and other black powder substitutes
New IMR pistol / revolver powders - Red, Target, Green, Unequal, Blue
New IMR 'Enduron' Rifle powders - IMR-4166 (4895/VarGet alternative); IMR-4451 (4350 alternative); IMR-4955 (4831 alternative); IMR-7977 (7828/H1000/Retumbo alternative, also H50BMG / US869 for some applications)
IMR-4166/4451/7977 are here now - and are very good products indeed - 4955 has yet to arrive
Everything from:
Alliant ATK in the Reloder rifle powder series (they are made either by Bofors or Nitrochemie in Europe)
Can't comment on Alliant pistol grades such as Unique - so a question mark there, but they have been reformulated in recent years.
Bofors (Some Alliant and all Norma grades)
Explosia a.s., Czech Republic - Lovex brand extruded and ball powders (previously branded Accurate Arms in the UK)
Nitrochemie Wimmins a.g., Switzerland - Reload Swiss brand powders
PB Clermont, Belgium (part of Eurenco Group) - Ramshot ball powders.
SNPE (various, part of the Eurenco Group) - Vectan extruded (Tu) and ball (SP) powders
Vihtavuori (part of Nammo) - all Vihtavuori 300, 100, and 500 series extruded powders
Interesting that products in the UK prior to the cut off will be allowed for sale
Surely the smart importer would be going gangbusters to get as much as possible
what I actually see is LESS interest in importing the non-compliant
Surely the smart importer would be going gangbusters to get as much as possible
what I actually see is LESS interest in importing the non-compliant
Edgar Brothers has somewhere close to 10,000 lb H. VarGet alone on back-order built up over five plus years and smaller but still significant amounts of H4350, H4831sc in a similar pickle. The ADI / Hodgdon supply situation is dire and being honest, Hodgdon Powder Company won't miss us much for most of its products as it can sell every bottle of them it can get in the USA or Canada 'just like that!' (To quote the late, great Tommy Cooper!)
Fantastic I have used nothing but H 380 for the past thirty years , is there an available alternative ball powder.
LeftHandGuy
Well-Known Member
Don't know what you're loading with H380 (I load 7.62x54r with it for heavier bullets) but what about Ramshot Big Game, which seems fairly close in burn rate and suggested cartridges? Or alternatively Ramshot TAC for a faster powder? Ramshot Wildboar may be available to you as well, but since we can't get it here I've never looked up what I might use it for.
Having worked for a North American company for over 26 years I've found that despite a 5 year notice on legislation they only think about it in the financial quarter before the **** hits.
Most legislation is self certified anyway, as is CE and REACH. Laziness on the US brand is the real issue.
Stan
Most legislation is self certified anyway, as is CE and REACH. Laziness on the US brand is the real issue.
Stan
#
I have seen the view expressed that Wild Boar as sold in Europe is the same thing as Accurate-2520 as sold in the US. Comparing loads tables doesn't produce identical data, but they aren't much different. (Since Western Powders bought Accurate out some years back and switched suppliers away from the Czech Explosia company to PB Clermont and General Dynamics, Valleyfield, Quebec, we've had most of the Ramshot ball powders intermittently, but no Accurate grades whether ball or extruded. Explosia products continue though under the Lovex brand name.)
I have seen the view expressed that Wild Boar as sold in Europe is the same thing as Accurate-2520 as sold in the US. Comparing loads tables doesn't produce identical data, but they aren't much different. (Since Western Powders bought Accurate out some years back and switched suppliers away from the Czech Explosia company to PB Clermont and General Dynamics, Valleyfield, Quebec, we've had most of the Ramshot ball powders intermittently, but no Accurate grades whether ball or extruded. Explosia products continue though under the Lovex brand name.)
Once opened, it gradually dries out - ie its moisture content % reduces - and this changes behaviours particularly burning rates. That's why if you buy the large size tubs (8lb US or 3.5 Kg for Vihtavuori), it is best decanted into a smaller container on an as required basis to avoid continuously returning to the well and facilitating drying out.
This runs contrary to instructions that powders should never ever be decanted into other vessels (for risk of misidentification), but there is a conflict of two safety issues here. Moisture evaporation has been known to make powders dangerously faster burning leading to serious over-pressures. I buy 3.5 kg bottles of Viht N150 and N160 and decant them a kilo at a time into older emptied 1kg Viht bottles of the appropriate product with the new lot number and date over-stickering the original.
So far as sealed tins go, I have a few older paint / thinner type steel tins of Norma and IMR powders that have to be 12 to 15 years old (at least!). I have no worries about using them at all, although on opening the tin and levering out the metal cap seal, I'll always sniff the contents and look at it closely before use. It's easy to tell 'bad powder' through a very strong vinegary smell alone. Every now and then old battleship gray painted ICI Nobel tins of powder resurface - there were half a dozen for sale on Fullbore UK Forum a few weeks ago which have to be 25 or so years old now as a minimum. If sealed, they're nearly always fine.
Try getting ramshot powders at the moment, particularly TAC, nothing has been imported for a year or 2, though that may now change!
LeftHandGuy
Well-Known Member
Wow. I am officially out of touch! When I left it was one of the more reliably available ones.... As you say, the demands and requirements of REACH may now bring it back into focus....
ChesterP
Well-Known Member
I've just switched from N140 to using RS50 in my .308 and have been mightily impressed with the performance. Lower observed pressures (fewer pressure signs, less recoil), much higher velocities, and importantly, when developing the load, a much more linear rise of velocity with load, unlike N140's tendency to save the best of the velocity potential for the higher end of the load range...ie a more curvy or spiky pressure rise. I was also achieving excellent accuracy with RS, bettering the sort of grouping achieved with my N140 nodes. Approx 1/3 moa with my 175 bullets from a T3.
As Muir suggests, it's not an issue. Just use up what you have and then, if for .308, I'd certainly look at RS50 or RS52 if you need higher velocities. I prefer the lower energy single base types (which RS50 is).
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