An huge own goal by the Shooting Organizations - the lead farce

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The Politicians are going to do something that much we know.

The shooting organisation can respond to the agenda when it is set - that is usually akin the shutting the stable door

Alternatively a comprehensive report setting the agenda, which will include benefit everyone by focusing Police time where it might make a difference. If we set the agenda we are more likely to influence the outcome.
 
The Politicians are going to do something that much we know.

The shooting organisation can respond to the agenda when it is set - that is usually akin the shutting the stable door

Alternatively a comprehensive report setting the agenda, which will include benefit everyone by focusing Police time where it might make a difference. If we set the agenda we are more likely to influence the outcome.
This is done regularly for example in briefings to Ministers but worth bearing in mind that one can influence but not necessarily 'set the agenda' when it comes to government policy and particularly anything Home Office related regardless of what government is in power. Following last year's general election, BASC sought several meetings with the Home Office to discuss firearms law and licensing and no meetings were forthcoming.

Also, the shooting community is rather conservative and when proactive moves are proposed by organisations on any policy issues relating to shooting there are many that argue to leave well enough alone. There are pros and cons in every case. Perhaps where we are most likely to 'set the agenda' is self-regulation, and there are many examples of this, most recently the code of sustainable shooting for wildfowl. The voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry is perhaps the most pertinent example given the title of this thread (labelling the voluntary initiative an own goal and farce in the OP), yet here we are five years later with no lead ban.
 
The facts speak for themselves, most ducks that go to game dealers are still being shot with lead. Anyone who beats on commercial shoots will know that guns have mixed drives of duck and pheasants. With guns laughing about not using non toxic cartridges. I believe wildfowlers are sticking to the rules but most of their ducks go for themselves. If guns had stuck to the rules we could have at least argued that it would work voluntarily.
 
The link to the Field article in the OP actually included a statement from the CPSA in February 2020: “We at the CPSA have been involved in the discussions with the game-shooting organisations and whilst we understand their decision to voluntarily remove lead from their sport, this will have no effect on clay-target shooting.” The CPSA response to the HSE recommendations in December 2024 stated: "In early 2025 we will be setting up a working group of CPSA board members, ground operators & partners from the gun trade, to plan this potential key change for our sport in the coming years."

As a CPSA member have you any updates from the CPSA to share?

I have emailed the CPSA twice so far this year asking for an update re setting up a working group, never got a reply 😡
May be early 2025 should read 2026. The CPSA are asking for £104.00 for the Club I am a member of to renew affiliated status, members are beginning to wonder what we get for the £104.00.
 
There are two reasons almost no one who shoots is in any hurry to move away from lead: because lead has unparalleled advantages in the field, and because the case for abandoning it is so very flimsy in almost every circumstance. Moreover, the cost and scale of the change being demanded is wildly out of proportion with this flimsy evidence. In a sane world, anyone campaigning for a ban on such a wobbly platform would be told to pack away their disinformation, apologise for wasting everyone's time, and go home.
This is not seatbelts, or motorcycle helmets, or unleaded petrol, or any of the other changes countered genuine measurable harms and made everyone measurably and meaningfully safer.
No one has been shown to have been caused to fall ill, let alone die, from eating game killed with lead projectiles; and the skies are ever more full of birds of prey, so it's clearly not killing them in meaningful numbers.
The sole aim of this is to make people who hate shooting happier, and, having had their hate rewarded, they will then go on to fabricate their next bit of mischievous nonsense.
 
Unfortunately BASC representation continues and has for some time reinforced the views of anti fieldsports advocates by promoting the apparent problem of lead shot ingestion inland while failing to quantify any impact on game bird population. Of course they conveniently forget the hundreds of thousands of birds shot annually by their game shooting members.
 
There are two reasons almost no one who shoots is in any hurry to move away from lead: because lead has unparalleled advantages in the field, and because the case for abandoning it is so very flimsy in almost every circumstance. Moreover, the cost and scale of the change being demanded is wildly out of proportion with this flimsy evidence. In a sane world, anyone campaigning for a ban on such a wobbly platform would be told to pack away their disinformation, apologise for wasting everyone's time, and go home.
This is not seatbelts, or motorcycle helmets, or unleaded petrol, or any of the other changes countered genuine measurable harms and made everyone measurably and meaningfully safer.
No one has been shown to have been caused to fall ill, let alone die, from eating game killed with lead projectiles; and the skies are ever more full of birds of prey, so it's clearly not killing them in meaningful numbers.
The sole aim of this is to make people who hate shooting happier, and, having had their hate rewarded, they will then go on to fabricate their next bit of mischievous nonsense.
I hear what you are saying and for the examples you have given, seatbelts, motorcycle helmets and unleaded petrol public opinion did not change overnight and there were many of the same principled arguments against a change (personal choice, don't believe the evidence) as we have been seeing against the move away from lead shot for live quarry. You are right nobody has died of lead poisoning from eating too much lead shot game but if birds eat lead shot mistaking it as grit or seeds they will suffer lethal and sub-lethal effects that has been well evidenced. So moving away from lead shot for live quarry is about due consideration for animal welfare and conservation and awareness and understanding of this problem has been growing in the shooting community over the last five years.
 
I hear what you are saying and for the examples you have given, seatbelts, motorcycle helmets and unleaded petrol public opinion did not change overnight and there were many of the same principled arguments against a change (personal choice, don't believe the evidence) as we have been seeing against the move away from lead shot for live quarry. You are right nobody has died of lead poisoning from eating too much lead shot game but if birds eat lead shot mistaking it as grit or seeds they will suffer lethal and sub-lethal effects that has been well evidenced. So moving away from lead shot for live quarry is about due consideration for animal welfare and conservation and awareness and understanding of this problem has been growing in the shooting community over the last five years.
So it’s simple just get the manufacture and importers to stop offering lead shot cartridges in shot sizes larger than a u.k. 8 (2.2mm) and greater than 28gm.
 
Unfortunately BASC representation continues and has for some time reinforced the views of anti fieldsports advocates by promoting the apparent problem of lead shot ingestion inland while failing to quantify any impact on game bird population. Of course they conveniently forget the hundreds of thousands of birds shot annually by their game shooting members.
BASC continues to encourage a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting and this is underpinned by the evidence of lead shot ingestion by birds in all habitats as assessed by the GWCT, and that evidence continues to grow monthly worldwide.

This is no longer only about wetlands whether coastal or inland (but be mindful that in Scotland it is unlawful to use lead shot over wetlands including foreshore, streams, rivers, ponds, marshes, wet fields, and moorlands with visible standing water) it is about growing awareness and understanding that birds will pick up lead shot mistaking it for grit or seeds in every habitat and suffer lethal and sub-lethal impacts as a result.

Moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting is about due consideration for animal welfare and conservation and awareness and understanding of this problem has been growing in the shooting community over the last five years.

Worldwide, hunters have been moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting and that includes mainland Europe, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ and so on - what is happening in the UK is not unique and pointing fingers at BASC is missing the bigger picture.
 
The facts speak for themselves, most ducks that go to game dealers are still being shot with lead. Anyone who beats on commercial shoots will know that guns have mixed drives of duck and pheasants. With guns laughing about not using non toxic cartridges. I believe wildfowlers are sticking to the rules but most of their ducks go for themselves. If guns had stuck to the rules we could have at least argued that it would work voluntarily.
I do not shoot driven and have no issue with those who do. Shooting waterfowl with lead knowing it can cause problems for shooting is detrimental to all, posts like the one quoted may be correct but not all driven shooters fall into the self cantered w⚓ category.
 
I hear what you are saying and for the examples you have given, seatbelts, motorcycle helmets and unleaded petrol public opinion did not change overnight and there were many of the same principled arguments against a change (personal choice, don't believe the evidence) as we have been seeing against the move away from lead shot for live quarry. You are right nobody has died of lead poisoning from eating too much lead shot game but if birds eat lead shot mistaking it as grit or seeds they will suffer lethal and sub-lethal effects that has been well evidenced. So moving away from lead shot for live quarry is about due consideration for animal welfare and conservation and awareness and understanding of this problem has been growing in the shooting community over the last five years.
Do you have any idea of the numbers of birds that die annually from ingesting lead shot compared to avian bird flu?
 
Politicians are led by the public and sometime no matter the science or anything logical, a few screaming can get the public perception based on emotion. Then the politicians are led into a, we are doing this, you can talk all you like, but it is coming. This is not the fault of the orgs, rather the knee jerk reactions of the politicians. Think motorcycle helmet laws, dangerous dogs act. Rightly or wrongly, they were forced in and you could waste your time fighting or move on to something else.

Now, and this is just my opinion of course, where the orgs Fail, is in not having people who are great orators who can counter the negative antis.
Unfortunately, antis, use emotion, “do you want to die slowly from lead poisoning, or should we ban shooting?. Well most people are going to choose the alternative. I have seen the counter arguments from the org. One of which is tradition. Never mention tradition. Tradition is not a valid argument. You have to counter with a valid science argument, with emotion. The emotion is probably more important.
The problem is, to be an orator, you need a high degree of skill, ( Think of someone like Peter Ustinov who was a delight to listen to) It is a skill, you have to have it, and of course, you need to believe in the cause and be able to put it back to the politician.

Whilst the shooting community has many passionate people, I think we have less people trained in the ways of media, sales and marketing. Those are the skills, (again in my opinion) that would help promote shooting as a positive benefit. I don’t think we market ourselves very well. Letters from certain organisations that say, “we wrote a strong letter”, or, the others who never say anything at all on social media.
I sell venison locally, I promote it as wild meat, with low miles, low carbon footprint, ethically sourced, etc etc. even the vegetarians are, whilst not delighted with what I do, understanding of what I am saying. Of course, these are not the, scream in you face types. But your average, just want to live life and are happy to understand what you do.

Until the orgs get such people, I think we will always struggle, this is not me having a go at the orgs.
But, professional organisations, who employ professional people, (who mentioned the RSPB?) manage to get people to donate houses and land to them when they die and then buy up lots of land and do the well documented “great job” managing the land (cough) and making more money. That is sales and marketing, you do not get that by taking on volunteers. You get that by employing specialists in their field and you have to pay them the going rate for their skill.

The SD is like the chat down the pub, we all have great ideas, arguments, have a beer, then, move on, problem sorted. Few of us, me included, rarely go forth and go back to an organisation and make the changes. Organisations like anything, need a leader, the idea has to be sold to the leader, who then cascades down to the business, org, whatever, the policy.

The SD collective opinion is like herding cats and basically, usually/often breaks down into a slagging match. Hence, why we (the shooting community) tend to fail.

Of course, you might think completely different.
I agree, the likes of the RSPB have a fairly easy sell (‘look at the cute birdy chick’) and very sophisticated marketing and lobbying machines.

The shooting orgs have an inherently more complex narrative to peddle, and don’t necessarily have the funds and mandate to take the most effective approach. Often it feels like the ‘shooting community’ are actively trying to hamper them - plenty of carping on here about BASC ‘wasting too much time on social media’ or ‘lobbying MPs’. What do people think ‘fighting for shooting’ looks like?

If anyone has a spare gazillion pounds, I’d love to see what Saatchi (for example) would make of a pro field sports marketing campaign.
 
Which birds are dying in what numbers, how is this being assessed, are the findings verified and repeatable, and is it making a difference proportionate to the proposed actions?
I could die from choking on a bun -and no doubt a queue is currently forming to buy me a whole boxful-, but I haven't yet done so. People do die from choking on buns, of course, and that's sad, but last time I looked no one was marching against murderous muffins.
Also, following other countries ' examples isn't a scientific rationale for anything, just an excuse for abrogating independent thought and action. (Hormone-addled beef and chlorinated chicken, anyone?)
I know BASC have for some reason decided this is a hill they want to virtue signal from, but they've done a very poor job of convincing their members that there's any more to it than that, and they have no doubt lost the support of a good many people who shared my dismay, at their high-handed decision to skip any consultation and simply announce their capitulation all those years ago, and at their ongoing failure to recognise the calamitous nature of that mistake.
 
For “failure to recognise “ read refusal to recognise “.
The virtue signalling and promotion of non evidence by BASC to support the justification of a lead ban will be the straw that broke the camels back for many members. The doublespeak that sees criticism of their actions ,conveniently labelled as BASC bashing ,is an insult to those that see the danger of further lead shot restrictions. How much has BASC contributed to the glass half empty mentality in the shooting community by its refusal to consistently and unequivocally oppose further lead shot restrictions and at what time will it be considered that BASC is no longer the voice of shooting when it could be argued that they are not even the voice of their own members.
 
money money money it’s a rich man’s world……. a lot who shoot do so on a limited budget, if a non toxic cartridge with biodegradable wad was available five years ago for quite a lot less £ than the lead offering then likely the transition would have gained far greater support.

Even now live quarry cartridges in steel shot with biodegradable wads are in the £500 to £600 compared to lead at £300 to £400, 12bore.
 
I hear what you are saying and for the examples you have given, seatbelts, motorcycle helmets and unleaded petrol public opinion did not change overnight and there were many of the same principled arguments against a change (personal choice, don't believe the evidence) as we have been seeing against the move away from lead shot for live quarry. You are right nobody has died of lead poisoning from eating too much lead shot game but if birds eat lead shot mistaking it as grit or seeds they will suffer lethal and sub-lethal effects that has been well evidenced. So moving away from lead shot for live quarry is about due consideration for animal welfare and conservation and awareness and understanding of this problem has been growing in the shooting community over the last five years.
As far as I have been able to ascertain not only has nobody died but nobody has EVER been admitted to hospital with the symptoms of lead poisoning? other than by lead vapour from lead smelting. As far as the "well evidenced" cases of wild birds suffering from lead injestion, there is none! No person or organisation has, as far as I can find out, ever found a bird in this country, in the wild, whose autopsy shows lead as cause of death? what people/organisation's have done is to take birds, feed them lead shot in a lab, then subsequently say "ah well it's killed this one with 40 size 4 lead shot, 3 million of them enter the environment each year so 10000 birds must be killed! That is not science, it is supposition. As a final totally unscientific study I shoot in commercial duck shoot, yes I do shoot steel, and over the last season opened the wizards of 30 mallard, I found 1 shot, about size 1-2 steel!
 
Shooters giving up lead shot is like the prohibition in America. It is the views of some people in authority imposed against the will of most of us. I think there will be a similar outcome !
No, in the US people stand up for what they believe in, in the U.K. they sit back in their sofa with a cup of tea and moan about it on forums like these, ending in involuntary acceptance
 
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