Approved BASC DSC 1 Trainers

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Hi Moray Outfitting,

I see what you are saying there, and some good points raised. Thank you for that.

However, I would like to confirm that I believe we (Jelen) have a good relationship with DMQ and BASC, and indeed our courses are assessed using BASC assessors. The post I made was purely in response to Apache's post and NOT an attack on DMQ, BASC or any other SO.

The posts made my Ytene and Eric The Red are NOT made on behalf of Jelen, and do NOT reflect the view of the Directors of Jelen. If we as a company had issues with any Assessment centre or SO we would communicate directly with the party/s concerned. I do not feel it pertinent or professional for our company to raise such issues on a public forum, and if Jelen had any issues (which we don't) that needed to be addressed, then they would be addressed to the people concerned in a professional manner.

Ytene and Eric The Red are individuals, and their posts - as far as I am concerned - are a matter for them personally.

Best regards,

Mike

(Director - Jelen Deer Services)
 
Mike

Thank you for the considered response.

See exactly what you mean now regards your post following Apache and fully accept.

Agree also wholeheartedly with the point you make in your third paragraph - at risk of seeming condescension ( which I must emphasise is not the intention ) ; certainly would not expect any other stance from an organisation with your reputation. No one reading the preceding post should read any thing of that nature into the issues raised or the manner raised.

Also agree position regards Ytene and EtR in terms of speaking in respect of personal posts.

However, from Jelen's point of view are you able to confirm whether there is a commercial relationship? Otherwise we would wish to unreservedly withdraw any intimation that there was. This is asked on the basis of our point that the context of this thread made such a relationship relevant - even with it now being quite clear that they were personal comments. The context at the time of posting was important.

Regards
 
roestalker said:
As to the list being unfair and should not have been posted on SD, come off it :???: everyone who is a trade member advertises every time they post a thread - myself at Greenlee, Moray, Byrony, Jelen - why shouldn't BASC?

Jon.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with trade members advertising their own courses and that's cool but when 16 BASC 'approved trainers' are obviousy advertised to go to overlapping everyone else that's a bit different. That's coming across to me a other 'trainers' are available.... but they're not BASC approved, yeh ok :roll:.
 
Well, what a peculiar thread, but it makes a fresh change to reading about ballistics and optics for sale which is where most of my time goes lately. I don't know why I bothered reading the thread as I wasn't too interested at first, but I do have a personal distaste for the DSC money spinner, oooops I mean 'training', so I had a read through and my interest grew as the time went by. I don't know why, but I get a slight uneasy feeling on this thread. I can't put my finger on it, its just the timing of posts and some of the comments made, smells like people with undisclosed interests and Moray's post was extremely interesting to me.


I have a few points to add to the mix….


Peterm - In your original post, you used BOLD font. Yet in all other posts after that, you didn't. That smacks to me of a person in an "advertising" mindset, not in an "informing" or "helping" mindset. If I had to guess, which of course I do as I don't know you, I would say you posted the thread as an advert, nothing more, nothing less.


Also Peter, in your original post you opened with the words "As requested".
You were then asked by 6pointer "may i ask who all requested a list of BASC only trainers?". You did not respond.
In post 19 you then stated "I will try and answer some of the 'questions' posed?" But you failed to answer that question. However, instead you stated it again "I was asked to publish a list of Approved BASC trainers - which I have done."
For clarity's sake, I shall ask again, WHO ASKED YOU TO POST SUCH A LIST? (see how bold is used by people when they reaaaaalllly want to emphasise something and make sure it isn't missed.) ;)








Eric The Red - You said:


"There are some who are anti BASC and cynical about DSC, that is entirely their prerogative however thousands have taken DSC awards and obviously disagree with that attitude. BASC have simply issued a quality control system that ensures any trainers using BASC as a centre meet an excellent standard and the users can be assured of that."


Nice try, but I don't buy that. I am one of those that you would term "cynical". Although I take issue even with just that. Why is it that whenever someone sees a dodgy side to something, they are labelled cynical? We (the "cynical" ones as you would call us) are not into name calling, we just look a bit deeper that's all. If we were the childish name calling type, we might just sit here and call all you DSC proponents "a bunch of money grabbing cheats".


Anyway, moving swiftly on to address your comment more intelligently… to make the claim or assumption that just because thousands of people have taken DSC courses proves that they "obviously disagree with that attitude" is wholly misleading and it is not a conclusion one can reasonably draw at all.


For example, I know of people who have "taken DSC courses", so these are people who you would call supporters of it, when actually they detested the idea, but they happened to have been hoodwinked into "believing" it was "necessary" in order to get their FLO to licence them a stalking calibre rifle. And before you shout me down as being anti this, anti that, I actually have a friend who is a huge fan of DSC. I am not against THE DSC, but the process of pushing people into being made to feel like its a legal requirement or something all "proper" stalkers should have. It is not law, its a choice and good luck to those who take it, but for those who don't, there should be NO punishment or peering down noses at them.


atb
 
bills said:
Well, what a peculiar thread, but it makes a fresh change to reading about ballistics and optics for sale which is where most of my time goes lately. I don't know why I bothered reading the thread as I wasn't too interested at first, but I do have a personal distaste for the DSC money spinner, oooops I mean 'training', so I had a read through and my interest grew as the time went by. I don't know why, but I get a slight uneasy feeling on this thread. I can't put my finger on it, its just the timing of posts and some of the comments made, smells like people with undisclosed interests and Moray's post was extremely interesting to me.


I have a few points to add to the mix….


Peterm - In your original post, you used BOLD font. Yet in all other posts after that, you didn't. That smacks to me of a person in an "advertising" mindset, not in an "informing" or "helping" mindset. If I had to guess, which of course I do as I don't know you, I would say you posted the thread as an advert, nothing more, nothing less.


Also Peter, in your original post you opened with the words "As requested".
You were then asked by 6pointer "may i ask who all requested a list of BASC only trainers?". You did not respond.
In post 19 you then stated "I will try and answer some of the 'questions' posed?" But you failed to answer that question. However, instead you stated it again "I was asked to publish a list of Approved BASC trainers - which I have done."
For clarity's sake, I shall ask again, WHO ASKED YOU TO POST SUCH A LIST? (see how bold is used by people when they reaaaaalllly want to emphasise something and make sure it isn't missed.) ;)








Eric The Red - You said:


"There are some who are anti BASC and cynical about DSC, that is entirely their prerogative however thousands have taken DSC awards and obviously disagree with that attitude. BASC have simply issued a quality control system that ensures any trainers using BASC as a centre meet an excellent standard and the users can be assured of that."


Nice try, but I don't buy that. I am one of those that you would term "cynical". Although I take issue even with just that. Why is it that whenever someone sees a dodgy side to something, they are labelled cynical? We (the "cynical" ones as you would call us) are not into name calling, we just look a bit deeper that's all. If we were the childish name calling type, we might just sit here and call all you DSC proponents "a bunch of money grabbing cheats".


Anyway, moving swiftly on to address your comment more intelligently… to make the claim or assumption that just because thousands of people have taken DSC courses proves that they "obviously disagree with that attitude" is wholly misleading and it is not a conclusion one can reasonably draw at all.


For example, I know of people who have "taken DSC courses", so these are people who you would call supporters of it, when actually they detested the idea, but they happened to have been hoodwinked into "believing" it was "necessary" in order to get their FLO to licence them a stalking calibre rifle. And before you shout me down as being anti this, anti that, I actually have a friend who is a huge fan of DSC. I am not against THE DSC, but the process of pushing people into being made to feel like its a legal requirement or something all "proper" stalkers should have. It is not law, its a choice and good luck to those who take it, but for those who don't, there should be NO punishment or peering down noses at them.


atb
Click to expand...

Sorry Bill, but I did not say that - I too was commenting on another's post.
 
bills said:
Well, what a peculiar thread, but it makes a fresh change to reading about ballistics and optics for sale which is where most of my time goes lately. I don't know why I bothered reading the thread as I wasn't too interested at first, but I do have a personal distaste for the DSC money spinner, oooops I mean 'training', so I had a read through and my interest grew as the time went by. I don't know why, but I get a slight uneasy feeling on this thread. I can't put my finger on it, its just the timing of posts and some of the comments made, smells like people with undisclosed interests and Moray's post was extremely interesting to me.


I have a few points to add to the mix….


Peterm - In your original post, you used BOLD font. Yet in all other posts after that, you didn't. That smacks to me of a person in an "advertising" mindset, not in an "informing" or "helping" mindset. If I had to guess, which of course I do as I don't know you, I would say you posted the thread as an advert, nothing more, nothing less.


Also Peter, in your original post you opened with the words "As requested".
You were then asked by 6pointer "may i ask who all requested a list of BASC only trainers?". You did not respond.
In post 19 you then stated "I will try and answer some of the 'questions' posed?" But you failed to answer that question. However, instead you stated it again "I was asked to publish a list of Approved BASC trainers - which I have done."
For clarity's sake, I shall ask again, WHO ASKED YOU TO POST SUCH A LIST? (see how bold is used by people when they reaaaaalllly want to emphasise something and make sure it isn't missed.) ;)








Eric The Red - You said:


"There are some who are anti BASC and cynical about DSC, that is entirely their prerogative however thousands have taken DSC awards and obviously disagree with that attitude. BASC have simply issued a quality control system that ensures any trainers using BASC as a centre meet an excellent standard and the users can be assured of that."


Nice try, but I don't buy that. I am one of those that you would term "cynical". Although I take issue even with just that. Why is it that whenever someone sees a dodgy side to something, they are labelled cynical? We (the "cynical" ones as you would call us) are not into name calling, we just look a bit deeper that's all. If we were the childish name calling type, we might just sit here and call all you DSC proponents "a bunch of money grabbing cheats".


Anyway, moving swiftly on to address your comment more intelligently… to make the claim or assumption that just because thousands of people have taken DSC courses proves that they "obviously disagree with that attitude" is wholly misleading and it is not a conclusion one can reasonably draw at all.


For example, I know of people who have "taken DSC courses", so these are people who you would call supporters of it, when actually they detested the idea, but they happened to have been hoodwinked into "believing" it was "necessary" in order to get their FLO to licence them a stalking calibre rifle. And before you shout me down as being anti this, anti that, I actually have a friend who is a huge fan of DSC. I am not against THE DSC, but the process of pushing people into being made to feel like its a legal requirement or something all "proper" stalkers should have. It is not law, its a choice and good luck to those who take it, but for those who don't, there should be NO punishment or peering down noses at them.


atb
Click to expand...

Hi Bill
In response to your post

Of course I was advocating BASC trainers, why wouldn't I?

You did insinuate that in 'all my OTHER posts' I never mentioned who the people were who requested the list - I only posted once after the request
In answer to this question and the request from '6pointer' (Which I missed the first time) - If those who requested the list want to make themselves known, I'm sure they will; thats their call

The 'Advert' was in bold for no other reason than I coppied and pasted it from an internal document

I hope this helps
 
Re-reading my post - it took a while ;) the issue of 'why post this' was covered, but perhaps not clearly enough - we certainly suggested and supported the posting of a list of BASC's Approved Trainers & Assessors.

The reason? As covered in our post above - we felt it would clarify some areas and provide an answer to various questions that had been raised on other threads. And clearly with a view to marketing our and other's product.

If there is a wider conspiracy to it, we're not aware of it.... but then we would say that :suss:
 
Hi

Borders College are also an approved Centre as are the other Colleges delivering stalking / gamekeeper training in Scotland.

Alan
 
Peterm said:
Of course I was advocating BASC trainers, why wouldn't I?
Click to expand...

Well that's fine but your clever plan and wording basically amounts to say that everyone else is sub standard by BASC standards of quality assurance. Who's the pro at BASC that sets this standard anyway Peter?

As a teacher and lecturer I will tell you right now that just because someone is certified and approved to teach doesn't mean they're any good.
 
Jelendeer said:
The posts made my Ytene and Eric The Red are NOT made on behalf of Jelen, and do NOT reflect the view of the Directors of Jelen........

Ytene and Eric The Red are individuals, and their posts - as far as I am concerned - are a matter for them personally......
Click to expand...

Do you all work for the same company though?
 
paul at barony said:
Well that's fine but your clever plan and wording basically amounts to say that everyone else is sub standard by BASC standards of quality assurance. Who's the pro at BASC that sets this standard anyway Peter?

I'm not suggesting that anyone elses training is substandard. I'm stating that our Approved Trainers are quality assurred by BASC; why wouldn't those trainers who have been through the ringer want to advertise this fact. The Quality Assurance Team is the BASC 'Shooting Standards' Department of which I am the Director


Many thanks, Dr Peter Marshall
Click to expand...
 
I'm not sure what the issue is here... is it the word 'approved' that has triggered the paranoia?

BASC have posted a list of trainers they recommend. They haven't said they are better than any other trainers, only that they have checked out their services and can recommend them based on that.

If anyone else wants to recommend trainers they have direct experience of then by all means start your own thread and do so, obviously with the caveat that if you are commercially involved with the trainer(s) then you will need Trade Membership, like BASC, Jelen etc have.

People post in here recommending trainers all the time and indeed some of the trainers in this thread already get their fair share of positive exposure on this site so please can we take the attack mode down a few notches.

thanks,

Alex
 
Alex i think it might be that BASC can give them selves quality assurance with out question this is not actual quality but a gift if you are listed as a BASC training agency. A bit like you Alex giving your self a medal for services to the SD while you might deserve one it has little standing if you your self awarded it.
PS who asked for this approved list of yours.??
 
It's up to you whether you put any faith in the approval process and it's up to you whether you use them or not. Just like when anyone recommends any services on here.

My only concern is that the site remains a useful resource for stalkers and IF someone is looking for training to do DSC and IF they want to know who BASC recommends then here is the information and it doesn't matter who asked for it, it's welcome either way.

If you want to make Davie's Approved Trainer list of trainers who you genuinely have direct experience with and want to recommend then start a thread and go for it. People are free to choose and if people start attacking you for it I will tell them the same thing.

Alex
 
Alex you know it is not the same BASC have milions of pounds of there members money to use to advertise there services.But if Peter can prove that his Approved trainers are superior to any one else then that would be something to brag about. Also on Peters very first post it said as asked for here is the BASC approved list i would suggest the person that asked was in fact Peter. But you are correct if i want to brag that i am an proved driving instructor as i am i need to pass an independent exam.
What i do feel is that because BASC are running the courses and the assessment centres are answerable to them (through dmq) It might be wise to treat every one as equal i know there are people from the Scottish government who might be looking at some of the actions and wondering if the private sector can deliver an impartial standard. IT DOSE NOT LOOK LIKE IT.
 
Peterm said:
I'm not suggesting that anyone elses training is substandard. I'm stating that our Approved Trainers are quality assurred by BASC; why wouldn't those trainers who have been through the ringer want to advertise this fact. The Quality Assurance Team is the BASC 'Shooting Standards' Department of which I am the Director


Many thanks, Dr Peter Marshall
Click to expand...


From the BASC website:-


[h=2]Meet the team[/h]
[h=3]Shooting Standards[/h]
[h=4]Dr Peter Marshall - Director of Shooting Standards[/h]Full biography/contact details:
Joining the BASC team in 2004 with a degree in Zoology and a PhD in Population biology, at Leicester University and Dundee University respectively, Peter initially joined the Research Department before taking on the role of Director of Shooting Standards in 2007.
He is now responsible for setting the standards within shooting sports, training, coaching, education and introducing young people to shooting through BASC’s young shots programme. He has a great love of most forms of shooting, acquired whilst growing up in the Cambridgeshire fens, although he is particularly interested in wildfowling, rough shooting and fishing






Top five services offered by the shooting standards team




  1. To set, develop and maintain standards in all areas of shooting



Peter,

could you tell us how many standards have been set to date, and what they are?
 
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