Ban Driven Grouse debate

[Rake Aboot]

I did say wildfowling but I hope you understand what I’m getting at.

 

[landkeeper]

Theres an invisible line between pest control shooting and 'sport' shooting .what's sport for one shooter is possibly pest control for another
However we are all in it together as shooters/sportsmen/pest controllers we are all tarred by a wide brush by those who dont understand or dont want to .id vouch 99% of the time its done because its enjoyable and fullfills what is to some a genetic instinct to hunt be it rabbit deer fox or whatever !
To me the line is crossed and becomes undefendable when the person behind the trigger loses the connection with what they are doing and just regards the quarry as a 'target' i mentioned in another post about a couple of lads decoying pigeons on clover the whole bag dumped in a ditch to me senseless slaughter and undefendable by anyone
I have seen the same 1st sept with barely fledged flight pond fed mallard and lads on here bragging about shooting 100+ bags of geese

 

[DCG]

Heaven forbid if this gets through but if it does, the government should then take full responsibility and costs of maintaining the moors in their present state or send the bill to Wild Justice and the RSPB.

Unfortunately this is exactly what Wild Justice wants.
You need look no further than the Highlands to see this, with once self sustaining highland estates being forced to massively reduce the numbers of deer on the hills. The Ghillies, keepers and stalkers employment, being funded by grants from various govt and environmental sources.
You’re already looking at the future, tax payer financed, achieved through stealth.

 

[bogtrotter]

Theres an invisible line between pest control shooting and 'sport' shooting .what's sport for one shooter is possibly pest control for another
However we are all in it together as shooters/sportsmen/pest controllers we are all tarred by a wide brush by those who dont understand or dont want to .id vouch 99% of the time its done because its enjoyable and fullfills what is to some a genetic instinct to hunt be it rabbit deer fox or whatever !
To me the line is crossed and becomes undefendable when the person behind the trigger loses the connection with what they are doing and just regards the quarry as a 'target' i mentioned in another post about a couple of lads decoying pigeons on clover the whole bag dumped in a ditch to me senseless slaughter and undefendable by anyone
I have seen the same 1st sept with barely fledged flight pond fed mallard and lads on here bragging about shooting 100+ bags of geese

This! and I am sure we all enjoy what we do but like you say when the quarry becomes just a target I also don't like the back slapping and the hilarity you see on
film yes taking a life is part of what we do but I am very uncomfortable when taking that life is where they get their enjoyment.
This is what the anti's can't understand that while we take pleasure in the whole aspect of the hunt it's not the taking of a life that gives us this pleasure.

 

[countrryboy]

Flight ponds , flighted geese ,walked up game, snipe shooting ,woodcock shooting im sure there are plenty more

They might all more morally acceptablef orms off shooting to many
But none are truly self sufficient as it relying on migratory species and no matter wot u do with habitat u never will increase the numbers enough to give u a sustainable harvest.
Also none could be scientifically defended the way grouse shooting can be,few offer real scientific proven benefits

If things change on there breeding grounds numbers would decline very rapidly.

With grouse they are a native bird so when u manage the habitat all other birds that involved alongside the grouse ( and really ALL ground nedting birds) will thrive.
And being territorial grouse are almost only shot local to where born, so a goodhard working keeper will/should have grouse and can directly influence his local population.

1 off the things I notice most when driving to grouse is the sheer number of birds in the farmers in bye silage fields, usually just took off 1st curvy 12th or so.
Just wild broods of birds everywhere, waders with chicks, pheasants with older chicks, all willd and standing out on the newlycut grass.

Same inmy valley hardly hear or see a wafer nowadays even on the poorer upland sheep fields, go to a similar field next valley up just alive with waders all fledging young.
The difference is near a grouse moor with a decent lowland keeper too.


Just to add I know this thread is already muddled by talking about releasing birds and pheasant shooting.
But if u look at the old game logs/returns even as recently as 70s there was real decent numbers of wild pheasant being shot.
Really not that long ago and in many areas habitat will not have changed all that much since
The difference is the sheer volume of vermin around nowadays, nothing stands a chance,approved at Otterburn by gwct.
The gwct also started a wild bird shoot from scratch on there farm at allerton and vemin was the key.
Finally on regard birds big bags are nothing new, the Victorians where shooting bags just as big as now,
Wot has changed is how often they are shot.
In the past be once a week/fortnight and invite only, the same faces just travelling round their mates shoots.
Now more shoots and some big boys shooting 5 or 6 days a week sometimes with multiple parties out

 

[countrryboy]

Almost. Controlling predation is artificially inflating the population.

As for the "agree with Packham" post above, wake up. And for the record, deer stalking is pest control, whether paid for or not.

Since when is a lurcher man against controlling predators?


Also it usually pretty quick with it big tar brush to claim all grouse keepers are committing illegal acts but the don't like it when someone calls lurcher men poaching pikey b@@@@@@@ds.

If ur happy to wave tarry brushes about u can't then moan when some tar comeur way.

Even p ackham himself reckons that far fewer than 1% of keepers are breaking the law.
Wot % of lurcher men would u consider regularly breaks the law??
Ie running hare, foxes, deer or broc or poaching?

I don't know a massive amount of lurcher men, and I don't think any I know would poach but ALL would slip there dog on afox on a fox drive or when with a gun pack. Many travel long distances to travel with some gun packs.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Since when is a lurcher man against controlling predators?


Also it usually pretty quick with it big tar brush to claim all grouse keepers are committing illegal acts but the don't like it when someone calls lurcher men poaching pikey b@@@@@@@ds.

If ur happy to wave tarry brushes about u can't then moan when some tar comeur way.

Even p ackham himself reckons that far fewer than 1% of keepers are breaking the law.
Wot % of lurcher men would u consider regularly breaks the law??
Ie running hare, foxes, deer or broc or poaching?

I don't know a massive amount of lurcher men, and I don't think any I know would poach but ALL would slip there dog on afox on a fox drive or when with a gun pack. Many travel long distances to travel with some gun packs.

Nice one
A massive rant about nothing.
I’m not against anything , we are having a discussion about driven bird shooting and how it is being attacked.
As for accusing me of claiming keepers break the law , stop talking ****.

You seem to be the one waving a brush bud, certainly not me.

The only thing I have said is how many shooters shat on dog men rather than defend them.

 

[foxhunter]

[QUOTE="Rake Aboot, post: 2139786, member:

The only thing I have said is how many shooters shat on dog men rather than defend them.
[/QUOTE]
And all lurcher men **** on shooting folk even though shooters are legal and dog men are in the whole committing offences. I attended the Countryside marches in London in support of fox hunting even though they slag off shooters , dont think the fox hunting fraternity would do the same for shooting folk.

 

[T-D Deer Management]

It is sad. Very SAD, that Shooting’s arch nemesis is this guy:
View attachment 211128
badger sniffing ****

The real problem however is with our own fraternity. This sort of **** could NEVER happen in the USA. The Americans have themselves organised. They don’t **** about. They put their money into hunting and conservation and have no problems defending themselves.
Hunters in the UK are NOT confident enough about defending themselves. I am always amazed that people cannot stick up for what they’re doing….hunters here are actually embarrassed to talk about what they do.
“Ooh just keep quiet and hopefully nobody will realise that we kill stuff”
“oh let’s help with the big garden birdwatch and hopefully Packham will let us lick his balls and then he will leave us alone”
Nope
We are ****ED because people are NOT proactive enough. Always on the back foot…..
Bunch of ****ing mugs

Finally someone that talk sense

 

[Pedro]

I think that everyone should stick to their consciences. I also believe that all field sports enthusiasts should stick together. However, there's only ever going to be some compromise there for some people. For example, I know that not all stalkers or game shooters believe that fox hunting is/was a good thing. So for some, there's a hard choice to be made.

However, despite all the doom and gloom above, this attempt to eradicate grouse shooting has failed dismally and spectacularly. We might be doomed long term, but in the meantime, I say let's by all means stick together and prepare. But most of all, let's all have a bloody good time doing what we collectively enjoy and present to the world a great sport that has so many advantages rather than talk about the end of the world as we know it. Then who knows?

To quote Mark Twain: "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

 

[countrryboy]

Nice one
A massive rant about nothing.
I’m not against anything , we are having a discussion about driven bird shooting and how it is being attacked.
As for accusing me of claiming keepers break the law , stop talking ****.

You seem to be the one waving a brush bud, certainly not me.

The only thing I have said is how many shooters shat on dog men rather than defend them.

To be fair u havent in this thread but u won't have to look hard in any BoP thread in the past to see u claiming there all 'at it'.

So why should lurchermen not support grouse shooting?
U sort of claimed it was because they didn't support u when running foxes was banned.
But surely that was banned as part of the hunting laws so plenty of chinless wonders affected by that
Not like some sort of targeted class war against the working class.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Show me where I claim all keepers are at it in any thread please .
Don’t add a caveat to admitting you were wrong please.