Ban Driven Grouse debate

So you all agree with Packam by the sound of it then. Putting 40m reared birds and 1000 tonnes of lead into the environment is unjustifiable. Several posts seem to agree with that.

So you agree with him but he is a **** for making the point, and we all need to band together to stop him succeeding in something you all agree with?

Got it.

But shooting something just because it has horns on its head is totally different from "just turning an animal into a target"

Hmmmm

Presumably the guys who go on 500 bird days do it because they enjoy it, just like stalkers who enjoy shooting deer with big antlers. There's the justification, they do it because they enjoy it. No ?
You don't see deer driven into a line of guns by there hundreds in this country do you.then treated like rubbish at a dump. What's happened too the smaller but better quality sporting days.mr packham doesn't have too try very hard too damage shooting we are doing it our selfs by letting greed get in
 
While we have Hen Harriers more than some would have us think the thing that is seldom mentioned when discussing
Harrier numbers is that the Uk is right on the fringe of the Hen Harrier's territory.

is it? Plenty on the Orkneys, western Scotland, the Isle of Man, in fact most northern upland areas away from grouse moors. Loads of them. Now Montague’s harrier is on the edge of its range and now extremely rare.
 
Some of the posts above about the "justification for grouse shooting" are entirely wrong. We live in a common law country, and as such, the idea of justification is an entirely incorrect premise. In common law countries, the freedom exists to do everything, except where a justification exists to prevent it. Therefore, the idea that grouse shooting need to be justified is entirely wrong.
It doesn't matter in the least whether it is economically valuable, good for the peat, other bird species or anything else.
The fact is that there is no justification at all for banning it. Some may bleat about (very small numbers of) birds of prey dying in the same counties as grouse moors and saying that the relative absence of a reasonably common lowland European bird from a northern upland (hen harrier) is so outrageous that we must seize the land, plant trees and suck lentils, but that is no sort of justification at all. Killing birds of prey is illegal. Law exists to deal with it. Connecting it to grouse shooting is an absurd non sequitur. It doesn't matter at all if it's occasionally found that a gamekeeper committed that crime.
Head buried firmly in the sand then is it ?
You keep thinking that . The rest of the population will think otherwise and ban driven bird shooting , but that’s ok cause you don’t need to justify it.
 
Head buried firmly in the sand then is it ?
You keep thinking that . The rest of the population will think otherwise and ban driven bird shooting , but that’s ok cause you don’t need to justify it.
Wrong. Most general public understand what public footpaths are. Just because Scotland has a right to roam doesn't mean that England does. Maybe the Scottish government were just weak and done the rest of us no favours at all? You are not "The rest of the population" and don't think for them either. You're just making stuff up I'm afraid!
 
You don't see deer driven into a line of guns by there hundreds in this country do you.then treated like rubbish at a dump. What's happened too the smaller but better quality sporting days.mr packham doesn't have too try very hard too damage shooting we are doing it our selfs by letting greed get in
What has that got to do with anything? You do see it in other countries. I don't see that that is relevant at all. "Rubbish at a dump?" I have not seen that either. I look after the game on one of the shoots I go to and it's certainly not treated like rubbish. Has someone been believing the photos a little to much?
 
While I have heard of birds being dumped and even seen photoes on social media , i have attended a great many
shoots across the cohntry, I have never seen birds being dumped! If it happens and I'm not sure that it does
its an infrequent occurance.
While Gamedealer prices are just about non-existent many shoots now process their birds or have them processed for them and sell them direct themselves, and many of the small shoots just give them away ,but dumped No!

While there is much talk of the right to roam in Scotland there is no right to roam ,what there is , is aright to
responsible access and while there has been some issues on the whole it has been relatively ok.

Where there have been issues it has been where peoplehave not been acting responsibly the usual situation of a few spoiling it for the many.
 
While I have heard of birds being dumped and even seen photoes on social media , i have attended a great many
shoots across the cohntry, I have never seen birds being dumped! If it happens and I'm not sure that it does
its an infrequent occurance.
While Gamedealer prices are just about non-existent many shoots now process their birds or have them processed for them and sell them direct themselves, and many of the small shoots just give them away ,but dumped No!

While there is much talk of the right to roam in Scotland there is no right to roam ,what there is , is aright to
responsible access and while there has been some issues on the whole it has been relatively ok.

Where there have been issues it has been where peoplehave not been acting responsibly the usual situation of a few spoiling it for the many.
You could take a photo of a pile of dead birds in say for instance China and put it on social media, the people who are of that mind set will believe what they are told eg from a big fat estate shoot, toffs swilling port, its not rocket science
 
Exactly. Not only that but that it is not a very rare bird, and nor is moorland its usual habitat.
Quite so, and what draws them to moorland is (a) high populations of the species they prey on (b) very low numbers of competing (controllable) mammalian and avian predators (c) closely managed human activity that minimises disturbance outside of the short shooting season. All 3 factors are entirely due to management for grouse shooting.
I've shot driven and walked-up grouse, and it has been a great experience, but what has mattered most about the experience has been the pleasure of seeing a form of land management that is all about creating a rich and sustainable ecosystem.
As has been noted, you can't run a grouse moor at a profit: they depend on the passion of relatively few very wealthy people, but -as the debate pointed out- the large sums that owners and guns spend on this passion provides the employment and income that supports some remote and economically-vulnerable rural communities.
I honestly don't care about the characters, attitudes, wealth, politics or shoe-size of these people, or that they get to enjoy something almost everyone else in the country can't afford; just as I don't care who goes trophy hunting in Africa so long as the money they spend protects wild-ish environments there against human encroachment and favours a diverse and sustainable ecosystem. No one else is doing this.
If we want to set aside the elites who have for many decades sustained these environmental and social welfare projects - because that is fundamentally what shotoing estates are - so as to make grouse shooting and trophy hunting widely accessible, then let's trial a lottery system - everyone who pays in has the satisfaction of contributing to a good cause, and one with much more measurable outcomes than any the RSPB could deliver, and the lucky few get to enjoy an exceptional sporting and cultural experience.
What mustn't happen - as the debate rightly pointed out - is the suppression of a widely-beneficial ecological, economic and social system without any comparably-beneficial alternative to replace it, out of the kind of spite and hatred stirred up by WJ. Don't be deceived: they aren't the least bit concerned about conserving hen harriers or any other elements of the moorland habitat: all they want is to get the shooters, keepers and beaters off the land, pin a great big self-righteous medal on each other's chests, and pocket whatever cash they can in the process. And once they're done with that, they'll find something else to ruin.
As for driven shooting that's based on reared birds, there are good and less-good ways to do this, just as there are good and less-good ways to farm, from an environmental and welfare perspective. The GWCT has taken an admirable and practical lead on this, promoting good practice whilst recognising that the economic realities. Iit's important here, too, to think in terms of land use, since game shooting is uniquely good at making use of -and thus extracting value from and consequently conserving- marginal spaces and pockets of woodland within agricultural land, thereby increasing habitats and food sources for many wild-bird and animal species; whilst keepering reduces pressure on these species from (contollable) generalist predators. Ban or restrict shooting whilst offering no sound alternative, and all this goes - forever.
Lastly, "fun" is not contemptible - it is life-affirming and we should enrich our existence by finding fun wherever we can whilst being mindful of its impacts. More than anything, the antis' compulsion to denigrate people who shoot and hunt for enjoying themselves reveals the poison in their hearts.
 
Throw an emotive subject into the public domain, & emotion will be the winner. Hunting with hounds, Brexit, Grouse shooting, Meghan & Harry, it keeps on happening. Emotion beats reason everytime. And when it happens, it is usually a smokescreen to cover up something more sinister. Take the hunting one, 160 hours of parliamentary time taken up debating fox hunting, vs 4 hours debating going into Iraq, which they did based on a lie. Look further for the truth on Iraq, & it seems that we were going to war with America against the enemies of Israel. Brexit, to protect the tax breaks & money laundering going on by the City of London against regulation by the EU.
Grouse shooting, one of the truly sustainable harvests of wild game will go, if not by legislation then by removing the right to manage the land for grouse. Released driven game will be next, a far more emotive issue than Grouse shooting. Coarse fishing is on the list, unless you have a lake that resembles Colditz, the otters will take care of that one. The protection of predators will also end the majority of country sports. The rise of Veganism is a symptom of people management, it is much easier to control a field full of grazing animals in a herd (sheople), than it is to control the savages that roam round, unfettered with guns & dogs.
I fear for the future, & look back at the past with fondness, it was a world that my children will never be able to share.
Aldous Huxley was bang on, its a BRAVE NEW WORLD.
 
Some of the posts above about the "justification for grouse shooting" are entirely wrong. We live in a common law country, and as such, the idea of justification is an entirely incorrect premise. In common law countries, the freedom exists to do everything, except where a justification exists to prevent it. Therefore, the idea that grouse shooting need to be justified is entirely wrong.
It doesn't matter in the least whether it is economically valuable, good for the peat, other bird species or anything else.
The fact is that there is no justification at all for banning it. Some may bleat about (very small numbers of) birds of prey dying in the same counties as grouse moors and saying that the relative absence of a reasonably common lowland European bird from a northern upland (hen harrier) is so outrageous that we must seize the land, plant trees and suck lentils, but that is no sort of justification at all. Killing birds of prey is illegal. Law exists to deal with it. Connecting it to grouse shooting is an absurd non sequitur. It doesn't matter at all if it's occasionally found that a gamekeeper committed that crime.
If grouse shooting is banned, it wont have anything to do with science or global warning, it’ll be pure malice and envy, they hate us and don't like what we do, that’s more than sufficient justification nowadays.
The attack is on multiple fronts, theres the animal rights crowd that don't believe that any creature should ever die, theres the anti inherited wealth and privilege shower, theres the freedom to roam bunch and then theres the preservationists convinced that hen harriers et al are rare and endangered and that gamekeepers are slaughtering valuable wildlife in industrial numbers on a daily basis.
That’s a lot of people, its potentially a powerful coalition while its difficult to find anyone from outside the field sports community willing to speak up in favour of Grouse shooting.
They may be ignorant, uninformed crusties but theres a lot of them, they vote, protest and make a lot of noise.
Packham has a nose for weakness, he‘s not finished with the general licences and he’s spotted that driven grouse shooting is vulnerable, he is acting as the unifying force leading disparate groups towards a common goal, we may well be royally screwed.
 
If grouse shooting is banned, it wont have anything to do with science or global warning, it’ll be pure malice and envy, they hate us and don't like what we do, that’s more than sufficient justification nowadays.
The attack is on multiple fronts, theres the animal rights crowd that don't believe that any creature should ever die, theres the anti inherited wealth and privilege shower, theres the freedom to roam bunch and then theres the preservationists convinced that hen harriers et al are rare and endangered and that gamekeepers are slaughtering valuable wildlife in industrial numbers on a daily basis.
That’s a lot of people, its potentially a powerful coalition while its difficult to find anyone from outside the field sports community willing to speak up in favour of Grouse shooting.
They may be ignorant, uninformed crusties but theres a lot of them, they vote, protest and make a lot of noise.
Packham has a nose for weakness, he‘s not finished with the general licences and he’s spotted that driven grouse shooting is vulnerable, he is acting as the unifying force leading disparate groups towards a common goal, we may well be royally screwed.
From the debate it wouldn't appear that Grouse shooting is vulnerable. Only 2 speakers had anything bad to say about it and they didn't provide evidence to support their views that HHs were being slaughtered all over the place.
 
Jeez!!!! If I read any more of this thread, I’d be putting the Purdeys up for sale. Thank God there’s organisations collecting real data on the benefits/ effects of Grouse moor management, thus presenting ministers with the real facts and our side of the story. Yes, if Grouse shooting goes it’ll be all game shooting next, then the next and next and so on till all our country sports will be just part of history. It is up to us now whether we stand by and watch or to help In any way we can both financially and how we conduct ourselves.Both In the field and on public forums etc. We have a responsibility and standards to uphold, so let’s get on with it and stop infighting.
( btw. I don’t own any Purdeys or go driven Grouse shooting tho I’ve been fortunate to have an occasional walked up day)
 
[QUOTE="Rake Aboot, post: 2136821,

But really, don't ask the lurchermen to stand alongside. Even on this forum they are simply poaching traveller scum, even when they are not.
[/QUOTE]
The problem is most lurchermen not only poach but run hares , foxes , badgers and deer , they dont stick to the only legal quarry of the rabbit. I don't have a problem with lurchers just the idiots that own them.
 
What has that got to do with anything? You do see it in other countries. I don't see that that is relevant at all. "Rubbish at a dump?" I have not seen that either. I look after the game on one of the shoots I go to and it's certainly not treated like rubbish. Has someone been believing the photos a little to much?
We arnt on about other countries are we.and we know that all shoots arnt the same I beat on two of the best shoots in my area and know how a shoot is run properly. Iv been shooting long enough too believe my own eyes not photos
 
[QUOTE="Rake Aboot, post: 2136821,

But really, don't ask the lurchermen to stand alongside. Even on this forum they are simply poaching traveller scum, even when they are not.
The problem is most lurchermen not only poach but run hares , foxes , badgers and deer , they dont stick to the only legal quarry of the rabbit. I don't have a problem with lurchers just the idiots that own them.
[/QUOTE]

Wow
Keep going. You’ve just started to show how ignorant you are .
 
The problem is most lurchermen not only poach but run hares , foxes , badgers and deer , they dont stick to the only legal quarry of the rabbit. I don't have a problem with lurchers just the idiots that own them.

Wow
Keep going. You’ve just started to show how ignorant you are .
[/QUOTE]
You know it's the truth , just check out any forum and you will find thousands of images of hares , foxes and deer FACT
 
Quite so, and what draws them to moorland is (a) high populations of the species they prey on (b) very low numbers of competing (controllable) mammalian and avian predators (c) closely managed human activity that minimises disturbance outside of the short shooting season. All 3 factors are entirely due to management for grouse shooting.
I've shot driven and walked-up grouse, and it has been a great experience, but what has mattered most about the experience has been the pleasure of seeing a form of land management that is all about creating a rich and sustainable ecosystem.
As has been noted, you can't run a grouse moor at a profit: they depend on the passion of relatively few very wealthy people, but -as the debate pointed out- the large sums that owners and guns spend on this passion provides the employment and income that supports some remote and economically-vulnerable rural communities.
I honestly don't care about the characters, attitudes, wealth, politics or shoe-size of these people, or that they get to enjoy something almost everyone else in the country can't afford; just as I don't care who goes trophy hunting in Africa so long as the money they spend protects wild-ish environments there against human encroachment and favours a diverse and sustainable ecosystem. No one else is doing this.
If we want to set aside the elites who have for many decades sustained these environmental and social welfare projects - because that is fundamentally what shotoing estates are - so as to make grouse shooting and trophy hunting widely accessible, then let's trial a lottery system - everyone who pays in has the satisfaction of contributing to a good cause, and one with much more measurable outcomes than any the RSPB could deliver, and the lucky few get to enjoy an exceptional sporting and cultural experience.
What mustn't happen - as the debate rightly pointed out - is the suppression of a widely-beneficial ecological, economic and social system without any comparably-beneficial alternative to replace it, out of the kind of spite and hatred stirred up by WJ. Don't be deceived: they aren't the least bit concerned about conserving hen harriers or any other elements of the moorland habitat: all they want is to get the shooters, keepers and beaters off the land, pin a great big self-righteous medal on each other's chests, and pocket whatever cash they can in the process. And once they're done with that, they'll find something else to ruin.
As for driven shooting that's based on reared birds, there are good and less-good ways to do this, just as there are good and less-good ways to farm, from an environmental and welfare perspective. The GWCT has taken an admirable and practical lead on this, promoting good practice whilst recognising that the economic realities. Iit's important here, too, to think in terms of land use, since game shooting is uniquely good at making use of -and thus extracting value from and consequently conserving- marginal spaces and pockets of woodland within agricultural land, thereby increasing habitats and food sources for many wild-bird and animal species; whilst keepering reduces pressure on these species from (contollable) generalist predators. Ban or restrict shooting whilst offering no sound alternative, and all this goes - forever.
Lastly, "fun" is not contemptible - it is life-affirming and we should enrich our existence by finding fun wherever we can whilst being mindful of its impacts. More than anything, the antis' compulsion to denigrate people who shoot and hunt for enjoying themselves reveals the poison in their hearts.

Well said.
 
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