BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[RF76]

For the potential risks of ingested steel shot and MRI - Society and College of Radiographers informed BASC that to their knowledge there have been no reported incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in the UK. However, the steel shot could cause image distortion during the MRI scan and for that reason if you think you have ingested steel shot before your scan you should let the staff in the MRI department know before your appointment.

For the potential risks of steel shot breaking a tooth, the GWCT advises: " Caution should be taken when eating game, because any type of shot can damage teeth, including lead and bismuth. There is a chance of damage if you were to accidently bite steel shot, but dentists in countries that have already phased out lead have not seen an increase in tooth damage due to biting shot since the transition".

On the topic of steel shot the following article may be of interest:

https://www.scribehound.com/cartridges/s/non-toxic-shotgun-cartridges/living-with-steel-in-denmark

Conor,

Thanks for your reply.

You seem to have repeated your earlier claim(s) in reply, and not cited any sources, or research and subsequent findings to support them.

Please could you do so. Thank you.

 

[Ratel]

The whole thing is a crock of sh..e regarding lead poisoning from shot. As pointed out the dangers with which we pollute our atmosphere are millions of times worse.
It's well known that smoking is bad for you but you would not believe what it's responsible for according to medics. Just one or two where I've been asked the question 'Do you smoke"other than the known heart and lung problems.
Sinus problems
Mouth ulcers and toothache
Failure of bone to grow after operation
Arthritis
Cartlidge problems
Skin irritation
Spinal nerve problems
Stomach and bowel problems
Earache and rotate cuff problems.
Recovery from a vast amount of injuries.
It's the get out clause, for so many ills.
It would appear that we seem to need something new to blame for ills that beset us continuously.
It's just like the COVID jabs, " It's a new strain".Yes well when did it occur because it takes a while to develop the vaccine. So by the time you have been jabbed for the new one it's an old one because another has arrived.
What a crazy woke world we live in, I shall continue to drink, smoke and shoot lead until I fall off my perch.

 

[Liveonce]

Clubs double the price of ammunition,

If Clubs are doubling the price of ammunition i would find another clay club or ground to shoot with.

clubs will be buying cartridges from an RFD and probably selling to members at cost or for a few pence the commercial grounds will likely be buying in bulk direct from the manufacture or importer and selling for normal retail price or even slightly less. The money, profit is in the clays and or food and drink not in selling the cartridges.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Conor,

Thanks for your reply.

You seem to have repeated your earlier claim(s) in reply, and not cited any sources, or research and subsequent findings to support them.

Please could you do so. Thank you.

The Society and College of Radiographers and the GWCT. I don't have further information than their advice, which I trust. Feel free to contact them for more information if you have concerns.

 

[RF76]

The Society and College of Radiographers and the GWCT. I don't have further information than their advice, which I trust. Feel free to contact them for more information if you have concerns.

Conor,

BASC describe themselves as the 'sword and shield' (AGM '22) for its members in protecting fieldsports.

To make such claims concerning radiography/dentists and no ill findings is not enough to quell the 'urban myths' as you call them. As you have gone to great lengths to argue with your reference to partridge chicks on the South Downs, there are studies to which you can refer when you choose, albeit at a stretch to support your argument.

In reply, you appear either unable or unwilling to substatiate the claims you have made earlier, which if they were readily available could've been presented as fact and support your argument. And, if you were trying to build trust in the BASC message, then instead of being dismissive you would excercise professional respect for the stakeholders you are paid to represent and provide such information, which should be at hand.

Until you are able to do so, the claims may be considered to be a falsety in order to support your argument and thus reflect poorly in the credibility of what you present in future. And, at a time when BASC does not enjoy a great relationship with many of its members, it is a time to be wholly transparent and communicative with all materials, and work hard to paint a whole picture, not just cherry pick what suits to support an argument.

 

[Liveonce]

The shooting organisation cannot now undo what they have done and therefore will not contradict themselves they have no choice but to only be 110% positive with regards to steel shot as they know the alternatives are far to expensive to replace lead.
The voluntary transition was seen as necessary to get game into the food chain from the large commercial shoots as otherwise shooting becomes untenable and BASC has invested money into getting the game into the food chain.
Likely the opportunity presented itself when Eley (owned by spanish maxam) who BASC are partners with introduce with fanfare the water soluble wad which allowed the barrier of single use plastic to be overcome with steel shot.
However the wider implications and risks of the strategy was probably not considered in sufficient detail and in depth.

Actually the water soluble wad was nothing new spanish ARMUSA cartridges had been imported years earlier 2013 by purbeck shooting ground, but they never had the voluntary transition to help sales. The wads were invented by a Spanish plastics company with several millions of EU euro grant money.

Then nobody expected Covid or a war in Ukraine to happen.

 

[Bowland blades]

The Society and College of Radiographers informed BASC that to their knowledge there have been no reported incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in the UK. However, the steel shot could cause image distortion during the MRI scan and for that reason if you think you have ingested steel shot before your scan you should let the staff in the MRI department know before your appointment.

Also, no issues reported by UK wildfowlers, or game shooters in USA and Denmark and many other places using steel shot for game shooting for many years as regards broken teeth, so let's put that urban myth to bed also

If you report there might be some metal in you the staff will simply cancel your scan , its too hard and long to test for it ! Forget about that tactic , the biggest risk its putting the scanner out of operation a while i guess but the metal would need some mass to do any real damage . I have been through them while i must of had metal bits in my hands etc because it constantly occurs

 

[enfieldspares]

Then and now in the USA:

 

[Terry2016]

Are you a radiographer or a medical professional in some way to be able to state this?

I had a hole in my duodenum, caused by a gallstone.
Three special stents air freighted 1st class from South Korea didn’t help.
The hole was getting bigger which meant that food wasn’t getting to my bowels.
To such an extent that I was down to 47.5kg. The doctors were so concerned that they gave TPN feed through my veins to keep me alive and stabilised to get me through the operation needed to save me.
Otherwise the next stage was organ failure and death due to malnutrition.

A colleague‘s wife passed away a year ago last week from complications around her perforated gut which she’d had for a few years, during which time she needed stoma bags.

There are a number of people world wide who have gut problems causing serious illness, in fact I was contacted by a SD member about my experience with stoma bags which he would need due to his illness.

Whilst that is all very serious, and I wish you well with it - none of it relates to a "gut "issue caused by steel shot.

 

[Terry2016]

It's not that steel pellets would go flying out your guts. More that there have been cases in USA, one where an individual had steel alloy pellets remaining for months in his guts. As well as bowel cancer. Trying to do an MRI of the cancer was impossible. If they were lead, this would not if been such an issue on imaging as they would not interfere with the magnetic resonance image!
Chances are low of this happening. But then again I have not read of countless cases of folk suffering from lead poisoning from lead pellets. HSE and others should look at other areas of industry where the use of lead causes more frequent and harmful health issues. But they are not because there is money in those areas and they are not so easy targets. Again for myself I am happy to shoot steel. But the cost of replacement barrels and ammunition needs to come more affordable for both shotgun and rifle users, if the shooting community in UK is to continue and allow generations to continue.

There are many ways of inspecting the gut other than MRI , there is also CAT and internal cameras up and down...

You will not need to replace your barrels with steel shot as "the shot" does not come into contact with the barrel.

In rifles copper will ware a barrel faster than lead of course, however, there are many variables to consider, its not just about material its about propellant and the speed of the round going down the barrel...

For shotguns, steel is the future (next cheapest option to lead)

For rifles, we will have to wait and see BUT I expect copper will be the answer and the extra cost will be absorbed by the shooter.

 

[Terry2016]

The shooting organisation cannot now undo what they have done and therefore will not contradict themselves they have no choice but to only be 110% positive with regards to steel shot as they know the alternatives are far to expensive to replace lead.
The voluntary transition was seen as necessary to get game into the food chain from the large commercial shoots as otherwise shooting becomes untenable and BASC has invested money into getting the game into the food chain.
Likely the opportunity presented itself when Eley (owned by spanish maxam) who BASC are partners with introduce with fanfare the water soluble wad which allowed the barrier of single use plastic to be overcome with steel shot.
However the wider implications and risks of the strategy was probably not considered in sufficient detail and in depth.

Actually the water soluble wad was nothing new spanish ARMUSA cartridges had been imported years earlier 2013 by purbeck shooting ground, but they never had the voluntary transition to help sales. The wads were invented by a Spanish plastics company with several millions of EU euro grant money.

Then nobody expected Covid or a war in Ukraine to happen.

who BASC are partners with - this is incorrect.

 

[Liveonce]

who BASC are partners with - this is incorrect.

They are partners in the sense that BASC shooting programme teams up with Eley at the likes of the Game Fair etc and BASC refer to them as their official sponsors, see bottom of their web page listing all partners & sponsors, so they work closely with each other to mutual benefit one assumes.

Official partners and sponsors

BASC is supported by a range of brands, who also offer excellent deals to our members.

basc.org.uk

 

[timbrayford]

There are many ways of inspecting the gut other than MRI , there is also CAT and internal cameras up and down...

You will not need to replace your barrels with steel shot as "the shot" does not come into contact with the barrel.

In rifles copper will ware a barrel faster than lead of course, however, there are many variables to consider, its not just about material its about propellant and the speed of the round going down the barrel...

For shotguns, steel is the future (next cheapest option to lead)

For rifles, we will have to wait and see BUT I expect copper will be the answer and the extra cost will be absorbed by the shooter.

Cheap is no substitute for ballistic performance!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Conor,

BASC describe themselves as the 'sword and shield' (AGM '22) for its members in protecting fieldsports.

To make such claims concerning radiography/dentists and no ill findings is not enough to quell the 'urban myths' as you call them. As you have gone to great lengths to argue with your reference to partridge chicks on the South Downs, there are studies to which you can refer when you choose, albeit at a stretch to support your argument.

In reply, you appear either unable or unwilling to substatiate the claims you have made earlier, which if they were readily available could've been presented as fact and support your argument. And, if you were trying to build trust in the BASC message, then instead of being dismissive you would excercise professional respect for the stakeholders you are paid to represent and provide such information, which should be at hand.

Until you are able to do so, the claims may be considered to be a falsety in order to support your argument and thus reflect poorly in the credibility of what you present in future. And, at a time when BASC does not enjoy a great relationship with many of its members, it is a time to be wholly transparent and communicative with all materials, and work hard to paint a whole picture, not just cherry pick what suits to support an argument.

Most of the concerns around steel shot are indeed urban myths and plenty of Q&A out there online for you to review but that has little to do with the OP (have a read of BASC's response perhaps) and I feel you are just being argumentative. If you have reason to distrust and or question the credibility of the advice from the Society and College of Radiographers and the GWCT then perhaps contact them for more information.

 

[Liveonce]

You will not need to replace your barrels with steel shot as "the shot" does not come into contact with the barrel.

Unfortunately that is not necessarily true, google steel shot damage and barrel wear.

Damage to the forcing cone and bulging at the chokes can occur and their is suggestions by the trade that like you need new tyres for your car you may need new barrels for your gun depending on how much you shoot it.
Steel shot does not yield like lead going through the choke constriction giving rise to significantly more pressure than that of lead. The larger the diameter of the steel shot and the higher the velocity being used the big the risk of damage.

Yes wildfowler have been using steel shot for years but they typically shoot relatively few cartridges and in magnum chambers, not your typical clay or game guns. Some are now moving away from heavy steel shot loads to light loads of tungsten based shot in .410s with 2.0mm diameter tungsten shot, given it is so much more dense than lead.

Will just be part of the shooting experience going forward like any sport where equipment used gets damaged and replaced.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Again missing the bloody point by a mile. Although I wouldn't expect anything less.

No reply to my PM to you but yet you had time for this and another unnecessary personal insult. If you have genuine questions and are a BASC member please email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and I would be happy to help.

 

[User00039]

No reply to my PM to you but yet you had time for this and another unnecessary personal insult. If you have genuine questions and are a BASC member please email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and I would be happy to help.

Not received PM.
Not a personal attack, just what I would expect from a corporate response. Don't take it personally, I took it personally I kept asking and stating a point and folk kept responding that it's perfectly fine. It depends, like a lot of things in life!
Usually when people reference a finding they provide evidence by siting references of studies and journals.
You kept responding with the same issue as your cohort on here also responded, that steel pellets not been seen as an issue for movement in the gut. I and others for studies referenced.
Again because keep missing the point. Lead is harmful. I am happy to use steel shot in my shot gun. Price needs adjusting, hopefully this will happen on time. More support for younger shooter's and those with financial constraints would be helpful.
Steel pellets in the gut will mess with the quality of an image. Historically lead pellets have been found in folk appendix. Not average person but those that eat game regularly.
I have a good friend whom works for GE Healthcare, has a PhD regarding mri's and has sold them for over a decade. So I'll be following his advice.
Are you unable to comment on this open forum regarding .22lr lead ammunition and ammunition used for target shooting?

 

[User00039]

There are many ways of inspecting the gut other than MRI , there is also CAT and internal cameras up and down...

You will not need to replace your barrels with steel shot as "the shot" does not come into contact with the barrel.

In rifles copper will ware a barrel faster than lead of course, however, there are many variables to consider, its not just about material its about propellant and the speed of the round going down the barrel...

For shotguns, steel is the future (next cheapest option to lead)

For rifles, we will have to wait and see BUT I expect copper will be the answer and the extra cost will be absorbed by the shooter.

No there isn't if there was folk would not use MRI. Please do not continue to respond about things you obviously know nothing about.

If steel didn't come in contact with barrel then there would not be an issue with those not manufactured for steel .

A lot bullets are copper coated, yes there is additional wear compared to soft point lead. But it is quite low.
Copper alloys seem to be wat forward, but wait for the cost to increase.

 

[LuckyEddie]

@Conor O'Gorman here’s an idea for BASC to prove how confident they are.

As part of membership you get free private medical treatment should you injest steel shot which then causes medical issues.

If you are that confident about this then it should be at no extra cost as you should never have to pay out.
What do you say?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Not received PM.
Not a personal attack, just what I would expect from a corporate response. Don't take it personally, I took it personally I kept asking and stating a point and folk kept responding that it's perfectly fine. It depends, like a lot of things in life!
Usually when people reference a finding they provide evidence by siting references of studies and journals.
You kept responding with the same issue as your cohort on here also responded, that steel pellets not been seen as an issue for movement in the gut. I and others for studies referenced.
Again because keep missing the point. Lead is harmful. I am happy to use steel shot in my shot gun. Price needs adjusting, hopefully this will happen on time. More support for younger shooter's and those with financial constraints would be helpful.
Steel pellets in the gut will mess with the quality of an image. Historically lead pellets have been found in folk appendix. Not average person but those that eat game regularly.
I have a good friend whom works for GE Healthcare, has a PhD regarding mri's and has sold them for over a decade. So I'll be following his advice.
Are you unable to comment on this open forum regarding .22lr lead ammunition and ammunition used for target shooting?

Let's be clear, your comments are personal attacks and attributable to you and you alone, published in the public domain by you. Please stop gaslighting. As regards PMs, you are right, not one PM, two PMs sent by me to you and not replied to. As for .22LR please read BASC's consultation response - summary or in full. If you have genuine questions and are a BASC member please email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and I would be happy to help. Moving forwards I am not going to entertain your need to grandstand on SD. I wish you well for whatever you are going through.