BASC says don’t pay medical fee

[kes]

You said to use someone less expensive.

Would you sign as a referee for a friend of a friend? The law says you have to have known then for years, but if your friends says that they are a good lad then why not just accept that.

Professional indemnity doesn't cover legal responsibility.

GPs charging is OK (IMHO), but I think the rate should be agreed in advance at a level that is acceptable for all parties.

2 points, actually 3. first its data you are asking someone less expensive to look at not the decision-just preparing the ground. Second, GP's already charge to be references between £50-£150. Third, someone is misdiagnosed and sadly dies - are you saying you are not covered because they make a legal case against the practice ? Come on - its just the same - its someones opinion going wrong, sadly. There is however no justification ANY doctor will have to make that decision just flag up changes at any time and the poor FAC owner has to pay to be certified suitable by a psychiatrist or other specialist. Your defence of the fee does not hold water for me. I am sure the ones we have seen are probably down to practice managers who are indoctrinated to look for fee income potential.
The more one looks at this the more BASC and MR Glenser have it right - well done to BASC - no mean praise from me - and lets have more to cheer about - its overdue.

 

[rodkayak]

Do you have concerns about your patient being issued with a firearm or shotgun certificate ?

This is the problem. Computerised records are fine for the last 5 years but the first question covers the entire lifetime of the patient. Some patient records weigh 15 kilos and consist of illegible hand written notes. It is not just a quick flick throught the computerised notes. If you are going to take the responsibility (and that is what the police want to off load to a extent) then you have to look through the entire notes, this could take up to 4 hours in some cases.
I am going to charge regardless of what BASC or the BMA say (I am a member of both). I do charity parachute jump medicals for free, but FAC's are not a health requirement or a part of my GMC contract and if some members do not like it then get your own Medical degree and train for nine years and invest 200,000 pounds of your own money in a practice and see how you feel then !!

 

[Eddie P]

2 points, actually 3. first its data you are asking someone less expensive to look at not the decision-just preparing the ground. Second, GP's already charge to be references between £50-£150. Third, someone is misdiagnosed and sadly dies - are you saying you are not covered because they make a legal case against the practice ? Come on - its just the same - its someones opinion going wrong, sadly. There is however no justification ANY doctor will have to make that decision just flag up changes at any time and the poor FAC owner has to pay to be certified suitable by a psychiatrist or other specialist. Your defence of the fee does not hold water for me. I am sure the ones we have seen are probably down to practice managers who are indoctrinated to look for fee income potential.
The more one looks at this the more BASC and MR Glenser have it right - well done to BASC - no mean praise from me - and lets have more to cheer about - its overdue.

If you want someone to collate the facts then you are expecting them to summarise all of the notes EVER made on the patient.

Insurance will cover some things, but not gross negligence or criminal acts. So signing an opinion off without checking ALL facts would leave you very exposed.

The legal case will be against the Dr as it was their signature on the form.

Look at the T&Cs of your car insurance, they have plenty of clauses to minimise their exposure, I imagine A Dr's policy to be the same.

Practice managers are employed to manage a practice, part of this is to ensure profitability / financial security. So yes they do look for ways to make money. The same as a hotel or shop manager.

The other option is for GPs to work to contract and not do anything beyond NHS work. So no occupational health, no travel health etc. I'm not sure what the general public would say to that either.

 

[western woodsman]

I unfortunately paid a £25 fee for this recently, and I am aggrieved. The police afterwards told me I should not have paid it. But at the time and maybe bowing too much to the officiousness of it all, I just did pay. I think that GP's should just do this service. There might be this idea that somehow firearms ownership is all an extravagance or peculiar or other that is downright prejudicial that has informed the fee paying issue. Good that BASC have clarified. I will right back to my GP's and ask for a refund.

 

[rodkayak]

I emailed BASC and this is what they said

To be blunt, the BMA were involved in the discussions about this with the Home Office and us and they and us came to the consensus that there should be no charge for the initial check. We are simply following the conclusions of the meeting.

Its not as though we come to this conclusion in isolation, GP's representatives were involved at every stage, by the same token, the BMA had every opportunity at the meetings to put the case for the GP's they represent.

There is considerable annoyance from shooters about random charging, we have to represent our members interests first


This is not actually true I have just spoken to the BMA and they say that we should be charging for this service. It is important for BASC to get their facts right and up to date,The BMA are going to email me with the advice. A charge of between £15 to £ 30 is fair.


HERE IS THE ADVICE TO DOCTORS FROM THE BMA
Thank you forcontacting the BMA regarding fees for firearm medicals.

In ourdiscussions with the Home Office, Police and shooting representatives we havefaced continual challenges that have been particularly difficult to resolve,however we have made it clear throughout that this work is not partof a GP's contract and therefore GPs are able to charge a fee.

This informationcan be found on our BMA website at the following link - https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/ethics/ethics-a-to-z/firearms

I hopethis information is useful. If anything remains unclear, please feel free tocontact me further.

Kindregards

RobynO’Connor
I

 

[David63]

You did not email BASC you sent me a PM!!!

The facts in our press release are correct.

 

[User00001]

Surely we all get thrown fast balls in our jobs? Additional work that we weren't expecting and we just have to suck it up? Every contract that I've ever seen has a line at the bottom that says....and anything else we can think of.

 

[timbrayford]

The facts in our press release are correct.

I'm very reassured by this, the statutory fees are all you need to pay then. Close reading of David's original post reveals that if there is no response from the GP within 21 days the default position is that all is satisfactory.

Personally I think that it is rather irresponsible that a GP might not inform the FLD that you have potentially dangerous issues unless they receive a fat fee for doing so, it would appear that some of the GPs on SD feel otherwise. I think that it is best to agree to differ on that.

atb Tim

 

[David63]

And this is on the BMA web site:

[h=3]BMA revised guidance on fees[/h]The response to the Police's letter indicating whether there are any concerns and that a code on the patient's medical record has been added, is not part of a GP’s contract. It is therefore up to the GP to assess how best to proceed, taking on board the following factors and guidance:
1. The work involved in responding to the letter is minimal and therefore can be undertaken easily without delay and without a fee.

2. The work involved in responding to the letter requires time and resources from the practice that necessitate a fee to be charged to the patient (the Police should not be charged).

We would advise GPs to seek confirmation from the patient that they are in agreement to pay a fee before undertaking the work so not to cause additional confusion or delay.

So most cases can be done without any fee, in the rare case a fee may be charged the GP must get the consent of the patient - not simply do the work, minimal or otherwise, and then send the patient a bill!

How many of us would consent to work being done without getting the price first!

 

[timbrayford]

Going back to the point that I originally raised in post#2, what happens if you decline to pay? Presumably the GP will send no response within the 21 days and the grant or renewal will continue to be processed as normal?

 

[Orion]

Going back to the point that I originally raised in post#2, what happens if you decline to pay? Presumably the GP will send no response within the 21 days and the grant or renewal will continue to be processed as normal?

The grant or renewal will have already taken place - the 'tick box' letter goes out post-issue, so the FLD will, after 21 days have expired, assumed all is well!

But what happens if the GP sends a 'no response' response - as per the option 1 from the Devon LMC - how are the FLD likely to react to that?

http://www.devonlmc.org/library_p5049.html?sc=libdnl&id=30225&behaviour=inline

 

[timbrayford]

"However, we will record the information you have sent in the medical record and recognize our professional duty to inform you if we have any significant concerns at any point in the future. "

That appears to be a meaningful response, despite saying that they are not going to do so they have in fact responded.

The onus appears to be on the GP to notify the FLD of any concerns that they may have , irrespective of whether their patient has agreed to pay or not

 

[David63]

As requested I have checked my facts, and I can categorically confirm that the BMA representative agreed – along with the GMC and RCoGP reps, the police the government and us with the no charge policy.

 

[kes]

if some members do not like it then get your own Medical degree and train for nine years and invest 200,000 pounds of your own money in a practice and see how you feel then !!

When I did my degree, it was free. My employer funded my M Sc. It took six years in total overall for both.
If somebody critiqued one of my design or ideas I didnt tell them to *** off and get their own qualifications. I looked at it and replied in (I hope) a fairly respectful fashion. It seems you feel you have lost the argument and taken your stethoscope home.
Given the exchequer pays your salary, I'd have thought you could have done a better job of reasonably arguing your case.

Its still more important what actually was agreed and how has it emerged in 3/4 different ways to 3/4 different organisations.

 

[CharlieT]

Another interesting quote from a BMA factsheet.............

[FONT=&amp]If a medical report is needed, who will pay?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]During the application process[/FONT]

• Where a medical report is needed because the applicant has declared a medical condition on the application form – the applicant will pay the fee.
• If a further medical report is required – the police will pay the fee.

[FONT=&amp]During the validity of a firearm or shotgun certificate[/FONT]

• Initial GP check of the patient record in response to the standard police letter – there is no expectation of a fee.

• Where a medical report is needed because the GP has raised concerns or because the police require sight of a medical report for another reason – the police will pay the fee.

It is also worth mentioning that the HO Guidance details the whole procedure including charging in Appendix 11 annex A, which is where, I guess, the above was lifted from.

 

[rodkayak]

Kes
I have seen you wind up a lot of SD posters in the past. I am not going to fall for it. If I have to do a report ; I will charge. It's nothing about winning a argument. Its about how I handle my self employed practice. If people need a report ; I will quote and if they are happy with the price then I will do one. If they are not then they can join another GP practice and get a quote from them if they want. Free will both ways. You do not pay my bills and will not dictate my buisness mangement. Thank you for your comments.

 

[kes]

Kes
I have seen you wind up a lot of SD posters in the past. I am not going to fall for it. If I have to do a report ; I will charge. It's nothing about winning a argument. Its about how I handle my self employed practice. If people need a report ; I will quote and if they are happy with the price then I will do one. If they are not then they can join another GP practice and get a quote from them if they want. Free will both ways. You do not pay my bills and will not dictate my buisness mangement. Thank you for your comments.

It was not and is not my intention to wind you or anyone else up. I actually dont believe I have - except David BASC.
For a GP I see your attitude as a little strange - captive customers are unlikely to walk but I hope that you reconsider your position. Yours is the best kind of business to be in where the single fee is paid and you then (theoretically) have the choice to work outside that. The question I am trying to find the answer to is how, after a negotiation (and not about GP's contracts), any work for the police on behalf of community safety you did 'gratis' before is suddenly not part of the contract. If thats a wind up - I'm sorry.
I also have no interest in your business management beyond the above issue and its not just you. My comments were general I think, its you thats perhaps guilty of taking them personally. Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[finnbear270]

Funny how some doc's can charge £118.00 for an HGV medical, then I can find one just down the road privately for £45.00, ............ do the math.

 

[rodkayak]

I would do it for a lot less if it was cash, but unfortunately I do not have that option

 

[375 mag]

I've not read all this thread but i personally would not mind paying a few pounds for a medical if it would help stop unstable people from getting or renewing their gun license.