Well done. Here is the CC's eMail (remember keep it formal and factual). phil.gormley@scotland.pnn.police.uk
BASC says don’t pay medical fee
- Thread starter David63
- Start date
Well done. Here is the CC's eMail (remember keep it formal and factual). phil.gormley@scotland.pnn.police.uk
Shootist
Well-Known Member
Given the number of police officers convicted of various offending behaviour and all the stress they say they face on a daily basis, I wonder if it might be appropriate to suggest that they are assessed by an independent doctor to decide if they are fit to perform their duties. Naturally they will have to pay the doctor themselves.
Police Scotland are empowered by the Scottish Ministers and the Home Office and backed by Law, unfortunately, the fact that you are "annoyed" by their actions (which you judge to be dictatorial) isn't a basis for a legal challenge.
If you think the Police are acting "without warrant" then you can question this.
If you can prove that they are, then your action may be succesful.
Unfortunately some individuals lied on their application forms and their Doctors disagreed ("Nothing medically wrong wiv me" stated the applicant. "Yes there is" replied the Doctor, directly to the Police, in writing).
This sets a "precedent" (I beleive) and adds justification to the actions of PS FELD whose mandate is to 'protect the public'. They can now prove that the scheme "works" as these individuals may have gone on a killing spree.
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Despite all that has been said constructively or otherwise we still have the problem. Who can or should resolve it for all ?
Was there a unanimous agreement as BASC suggested ? I don't believe this situation is a conspiracy to obstruct renewals, but I do think it must represent a gross and quite unjustifiable misrepresentation of what took place at the meeting BASC attended.
How else did this come about ?
Was there a unanimous agreement as BASC suggested ? I don't believe this situation is a conspiracy to obstruct renewals, but I do think it must represent a gross and quite unjustifiable misrepresentation of what took place at the meeting BASC attended.
How else did this come about ?
It came about because the BMA reneged on the agreement made at the meetings they had with the Home Office, the Police and BASC.
Prior to the new medical information scheme going live in April this year, it was agreed by all parties involved is setting up the scheme (including the BMA) that there was "no expectation" of fee being charged by a GP for responding to the police letter which only requires the GP to tick 3 boxes, sign his/her name and stamp the letter with the practice stamp.
As soon as the scheme went live, some GPs said that this work was outwith their contract with the NHS and that they would therefore charge the applicant for the work involved in responding to the police letter.
The new Home Office guidance which was issued in April this year and covers all aspects of the new medical information scheme, anticipated that not all GPs would cooperate with the new system so included a clause which clearly states that if the GP does not respond to the police letter within 21 days, the police should assume that there are no concerns about the applicants medical status, and that the lack of medical information should not disadvantage or delay an application for the grant or renewal of an FAC or SGC.
It appears that in England and Wales, police forces are following the Home Office guidance and issuing certificates even when they do not receive a response to the GP letter.
The problem we have in Scotland is that Police Scotland are ignoring the Home Office guidance and have concocted their own set of rules based on an extremely dodgy interpretation of the 1968 Firearms act and are saying that, in effect, no medical information = no certificate
In Scotland the issue is only going to be settled either by Police Scotland changing their policy (doubtful) or by a court case resulting from an appeal by an applicant who is refused a certificate because the police did not have medical information
If the police were to win such a court case then we would be stuck with their policy and all the police forces in England and Wales would immediately follow suit.
If the police lost such a court case they would effectively be forced to follow the Home Office guidance and issue certificates even when no medical information is available
Cheers
Bruce
Im pretty sure that the Crime and Policing bill that is currently going through parliament/lords has a clause that the Home office guidance on Firearms licensing will become legally binding and must be followed.
Ian
Ian
In England and Wales, that could well be true, however, even the Guidelines themselves have a 'not in Scotland clause ...
Scotland
[FONT=&]11.39 This guidance on medical evidence applies in England and Wales. As processes in Scotland may differ separate guidance is being issued regarding medical information in Scotland. The firearm and shotgun application forms apply in England, Wales and Scotland.
I read this as meaning 2 things (1) PS don't have to follow the Home Office published guidelines and (2) they have made up their own set. Cheif Inspector Fraser Sturgeon-Lamb (i've added the 'Sturgeon' because his rhetoric reminds me of Nicola (Scotlands First Minister) Sturgeons patter who at every opportunity reminds us that "this is what the people of Scotland want" a[/FONT][FONT=&]nd [/FONT][FONT=&]The final say now as leader of the party is now mine....
) is at the top of this tree, is not at all concerned that we have to pay the Doctors as "they have a business to run too" he told me. What he is concered about is the saftey of the people of Scotland and if you look at what he has acheived (not in terms of the increased cost to the licence holders) he's done a great job !If the Scotish Ministers are going to issue/publish some guidelines I would imagine they would ask FS-L to write them, after all, he is the expert and has the most experience.
If you want to look up the powers that Scottish Ministers have granted themselves over the Firearms Act (with permission of the Home Office - isn't devolution a wonderful thing) it's all here http://lexisweb.co.uk/acts/2014/anti-social-behaviour-crime-and-policing-act-2014-2014-c-12/109-functions-of-scottish-ministers-under-firearms-acts
As a side note: this highlights to me the hidden cost of devolution/independence. Just writing that one document must have cost a fortune and if things do escalate it will all have to be re-written, the time, effort and cost of that is staggering. As one wag pointed out, just think of the cost of repainting all of the Police cars in Scotland to read POLIS ...
[/FONT]
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Reynard
Active Member
Just had a Visit from a Customer. He was telling me his GP in Penicuik is saying that he needs to have a medical before they will sign his paperwork. At a cost of £90 for to have the medical. They have all his medical records at hand, why would the medical be needed. Looks like another way for the GP's to be profiteering.
ferretmanabu
Well-Known Member
Another way in addition to what?
That is not a requirement from the Police, however (and this is where it gets tricky) the Doctors may regard this applicant as either border-line or suffering from something which may well be a cause for concern. If this is not the case and the applicant is medically sound etc then he should write to his Doctor and ask why they deem it neccesary to perform a medical.
He should also contact his local Firearms Officer and his Shooting Organisation with immediate effect.
mr baddoo
Well-Known Member
Aye, it would appear my practice has a change of heart. They will now fill in the form which i have to take with me along with fifty quid for a ten minute appointment. However as i stated before my certificates expire on the 15th november and the first available slot is nine days later.
Reynard
Active Member
If you had read the previous posts from myself. You would see that I am being charged £200 with no medical. Straight out Fee for to fill in the paperwork.
ferretmanabu
Well-Known Member
Wow. £200 and then £90 for a medical? That is crazy.
My GP wanted £100 just to countersign sign my UK Pilot medical form
But £120 from a dedicated aviation Doctor I get a full ICAO medical with ECG and bloods , which allows me to fly better planes worldwide
From what I understand the aim of this exercise was to get a 'marker' put on our records indicating that we have a shotgun or FAC, so we are somewhat beholden upon our Doctors to complete this form. Under the guidelines issued to the English and Welsh Constabularies you don't have to have the form completed, there is no 'enforcement' (as it isn't a legal requirement). Up here in Scotland we are being coerced (which I think is wrong), l but I can't see what we can do about it as (as far as I know) everyone is paying their Doctors, to avoid the hassle, or are not being charged.
From what I understand the aim of this exercise was to get a 'marker' put on our records indicating that we have a shotgun or FAC, so we are somewhat beholden upon our Doctors to complete this form. Under the guidelines issued to the English and Welsh Constabularies you don't have to have the form completed, there is no 'enforcement' (as it isn't a legal requirement). Up here in Scotland we are being coerced (which I think is wrong), l but I can't see what we can do about it as (as far as I know) everyone is paying their Doctors, to avoid the hassle, or are not being charged.
I do understand what your point is Padge, but it is slightly different from our situation as a medical is a legal requirement for a pilot.
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