BASC says don’t pay medical fee

[mealiejimmy]

As things stand at the moment, police Scotland are continuing with their policy of "no GP response = no certificate" and no amount of discussion or reasoning will make them change their policy.
It will take a successful appeal to the Sherrif Court from someone who's application has been rejected by Police Scotland because they have not received a response to the GP letter before Police Scotland change their ways.
I believe BASC are waiting for such a situation to occur and hopefully the unfortunate individual bringing the appeal will have BASC's legal team to fight his case for him and BASC will pick up the legal costs involved.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Orion]

As things stand at the moment, police Scotland are continuing with their policy of "no GP response = no certificate" and no amount of discussion or reasoning will make them change their policy.
It will take a successful appeal to the Sherrif Court from someone who's application has been rejected by Police Scotland because they have not received a response to the GP letter before Police Scotland change their ways.
I believe BASC are waiting for such a situation to occur and hopefully the unfortunate individual bringing the appeal will have BASC's legal team to fight his case for him and BASC will pick up the legal costs involved.

Although one wonders how long would the unfortunate have to stew in limbo with Police Scotland sitting on the application before it became a refusal to issue? Given the current turnaround figures up and down the country them could always plead normal admin delays to drag it out.

 

[Miki]

Although one wonders how long would the unfortunate have to stew in limbo with Police Scotland sitting on the application before it became a refusal to issue? Given the current turnaround figures up and down the country them could always plead normal admin delays to drag it out.

Yes, thats the problem. It's a huge amount of hassle. But the more people pay the more set the 'precendent' becomes and if no-one refuses to pay them it becomes 'the norm' (which I would think is very close to being the case up here in Scotland).

 

[Woodsmoke]

But the more people pay the more set the 'precedent' becomes and if no-one refuses to pay them it becomes 'the norm'

Yes, it does. I'm a member of a few FB shooting groups, and the number of guys posting about how they disagree with the charges is rising weekly. When they're challenged though, the response is invariably that they don't want to rock the boat so just bite the bullet and pay up. There's a lot of spineless apathy demonstrated by a lot of folk, and these guys are going to be directly-responsible for the powers-that-be taking a free rein when it comes to more ridiculous and unnecessary legislation

 

[slider]

News release from the BMA today
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/ethics/ethics-a-to-z/firearms

 

[AN DU RU FOX]

What about a support guide for the poor MUGS at the sticky end ie US!!!.gpc has concerns for gen public patients and gp,s ,,,what about us the ones who are law abiding Fee paying and still being shafted to the hilt! it should be scrapped alltogether forthwith. its flawed from beginning to end,do they honestly believe that anyone who gets that sick/mentally unstable is going to go to his own particular practise/GP and confess all before anything god forbid goes wrong i very much doubt it,they will have seen dozens of doctors before that happens,and even then you cant predict human nature .rant over,

 

[timbrayford]

Perhaps it would be best simply to lobby M.P.s to have the GP involvement removed from firearms licencing altogether as according to the BMA their involvement is not essential:-

"The work involved responding to the Police's letter indicating whether there are any concerns and that a code on the patient's medical record has been added, does not come under essential services"

 

[Miki]

What about a support guide for the poor MUGS at the sticky end ie US!!!.

By 'agreeing to pay', you (they) are making their own bed which the rest of us will be forced to lay in.

 

[Miki]

Yes, it does. I'm a member of a few FB shooting groups, and the number of guys posting about how they disagree with the charges is rising weekly. When they're challenged though, the response is invariably that they don't want to rock the boat so just bite the bullet and pay up. There's a lot of spineless apathy demonstrated by a lot of folk, and these guys are going to be directly-responsible for the powers-that-be taking a free rein when it comes to more ridiculous and unnecessary legislation

I disagree that the current requirement to engage the medical proffession and to 'mark' SG/Firearm owners medical records is unecessary or ridiculous but I do disagree with the coercion that is being applied to the applicant to pay. The HO guidelines make provision for this but (a) they are only guidelines and (b) they only apply in England and Wales.

The latest BMA quidelines (thanks Slider), unfortunately, give the Doctors licence to 'demand a reasonable fee' which if not received ' means the GP can refuse to engage further in the firearms certification process'.

The Doctors surgery is a business, they get (on average) £138 per year if you are a patient on their books, you are open to negotiate what you think is a reasonable fee, call other surgeries in your area...

 

[mr baddoo]

Yes, it does. I'm a member of a few FB shooting groups, and the number of guys posting about how they disagree with the charges is rising weekly. When they're challenged though, the response is invariably that they don't want to rock the boat so just bite the bullet and pay up. There's a lot of spineless apathy demonstrated by a lot of folk, and these guys are going to be directly-responsible for the powers-that-be taking a free rein when it comes to more ridiculous and unnecessary legislation

Can i ask, when areyour certificates due for renewal?

 

[kes]

Can i ask, when areyour certificates due for renewal?

A good question. Sadly we all want to retain our firearms and the police dont want us too. They have the whip hand. One individual will do what he can to retain his weapons. Without responsive representation the police will succeed. Saying individuals should not pay is a pathetic response - what it needs is pressure and we dont seem to have that.

 

[mr baddoo]

A good question. Sadly we all want to retain our firearms and the police dont want us too. They have the whip hand. One individual will do what he can to retain his weapons. Without responsive representation the police will succeed. Saying individuals should not pay is a pathetic response - what it needs is pressure and we dont seem to have that.

Correct! The reason i ask the question is that it's far too easy to blame others, my firearm/shotgun certificates expired at midnight on tuesday 15th november, so on the previous day i had to put my rifles into storage with my local rfd, my shotguns are with a friend. I run a pheasant shoot and need my guns to perform my duties. My doctor has changed his view and a appointment has been made to tick the boxes, earliest is 24th november, i asked to be considered for cancellations and was told NO. The £50 extorsion demand sticks in my throat. However i will be charged for the storage therefore there will be an added cost so i'll pay the £50 and get my guns back ASAP.

 

[mealiejimmy]

There was report on tonight's STV six o' clock news regarding the latest BMA guidance to GPs telling them that they must respond to the initial Police letter. The story was set in a gunshop in Dundee? where the gunshop owner was telling the reporter that he was now storing guns for several people who could not get their certificate renewed because their GP had no responded to the police letter and therefore had not had their certificate renewed.
There was no mention of the Police Scotland policy of " no response = no certificate"
Alex Stoddart of SACS was also interviewed, but he made no mention of Police Scotland's policy either.
I have e mailed STV News giving them the background and the reasons why it's Police Scotland who are the main cause of people having to put their guns in storage.
I'll let you know what, if any response I get.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[mr smith]

There was report on tonight's STV six o' clock news regarding the latest BMA guidance to GPs telling them that they must respond to the initial Police letter. The story was set in a gunshop in Dundee? where the gunshop owner was telling the reporter that he was now storing guns for several people who could not get their certificate renewed because their GP had no responded to the police letter and therefore had not had their certificate renewed.
There was no mention of the Police Scotland policy of " no response = no certificate"
Alex Stoddart of SACS was also interviewed, but he made no mention of Police Scotland's policy either.
I have e mailed STV News giving them the background and the reasons why it's Police Scotland who are the main cause of people having to put their guns in storage.
I'll let you know what, if any response I get.

Cheers

Bruce

Please do,thanks.

 

[Miki]

There was report on tonight's STV six o' clock news regarding the latest BMA guidance to GPs telling them that they must respond to the initial Police letter.
Bruce

This is still available on the internet/STV player (Friday 18/11 6 oclock news, Aberdeen) and in my opinion is blaming the wrong group. The news item clearly laid the blame squarely at the feet of GPs citing that because some GPs were failing to respond to the police tick-form, certificate holders were having to put their guns into storage. This is the 'effect' of GPs not signing the letter not the 'cause'. The real issue is that Police Scotland are not following Home Office guidelines. Down in the shires (where the quidelines are being followed) the lack of a completed form has no effect at all on the issuance or renewal of a SGC or FAC.

 

[Miki]

The £50 extorsion demand sticks in my throat. However i will be charged for the storage therefore there will be an added cost so i'll pay the £50 and get my guns back ASAP.

I think this is common, ie 'everyone' is paying the fee.. is there anyone out there refusing to pay the fee ? The new BMA guidelines now state that the GP's "must" fill in the tick-form for which they can charge a "reasonable" fee, however, it also states that in the fee is not met (paid) then they are within their rights not to complete the form and not send it back to the Police.

This is "a game changer" someone told me this morning.

So is there anyone out there refusing to pay the doctors fee ??
Anyone who has been told that they will not get their FAC/SGC because the doc has not returned the form due to 'patient non-payment' ??

 

[kes]

I think this is common, ie 'everyone' is paying the fee.. is there anyone out there refusing to pay the fee ? The new BMA guidelines now state that the GP's "must" fill in the tick-form for which they can charge a "reasonable" fee, however, it also states that in the fee is not met (paid) then they are within their rights not to complete the form and not send it back to the Police.

This is "a game changer" someone told me this morning.

So is there anyone out there refusing to pay the doctors fee ??
Anyone who has been told that they will not get their FAC/SGC because the doc has not returned the form due to 'patient non-payment' ??

Is this a plea for evidence or a challenge ?

 

[Miki]

So is there anyone out there refusing to pay the doctors fee ??
Anyone who has been told that they will not get their FAC/SGC because the doc has not returned the form due to 'patient non-payment' ??

Is this a plea for evidence or a challenge ?

It's more of a straight question really. Is there anyone who has had their FAC or SGC refused because they haven't paid the doctors fee ?

If no-one is in this situation then whats the problem ?
Where is the 'hardship' ?

Everyone was quick to start having a go at the shooting organisations (so much so that David (BASC) who started this thread, left in a huff) but what is it that you are expecting them to help you with if there isn't a problem ??
Is this the wrong group to be asking in ?
There are only a few complainers yet there are 52,000 certificate holders in Scotland. BASC gave out some sensible advice in the beginning. "Refuse to pay the Doctors fee".
Has anyone taken their advice ??

Police Scotland is not following the HO guidelines, (a) because they don't have to and (b) because everyone is paying, ergo, the scheme is a success, probably a bigger success than in the rest of the UK.

Personally I think Fraser Sturgeon-Lamb and his party should have adopted the HO guidelines and within a few years it would have all settled anyway as its a good idea. To be honest i'm surprised we still have paper certificates, i'd have thought that the Internet of Things would have caught up by now and we'd have been issued with a Chip & Pin/Oyster card linked to the Police database. With the new contactless technology available we'd just need to walk into an RFD's retail outlet and the retailer would know who we are and the Police where we are and both would know what we had just bought.

 

[ian67]

spot on with the chip and pin. I personally believe the authorities are doing they're hardest to stop the public in Scotland having any firearms. I know when i face renewal time i will pay for the doctors report/form as like everybody else, nobody wants the hassle, even though we know its not law.

 

[Whitebeard]

When the Crime and Policing bill becomes law It will be a legal requirement for all licensing authorities in England and Wales to abide by the Home office guidance, will this this also be the case in Scotland?

Ian.