BASC says don’t pay medical fee

[Miki]

Where is the surgery ?
Can you get that in writing from them ?

Agree or not. in Scotland most rural practices are on there arse. Due to things like chemist shops opening and taking away practice dispensary s thus leaving a huge short fall in budget. its not all NHS money in these places most the doctors own the building.
so to pay a fee every 5 year is not much is it?
some folk pay more to go to a home game or the likes, every week
is it a big price to pay for your sport?
as it will come down to dont pay dont get.
I have just spent £60 on two boxes of rounds and thought nothing of it.
or is it because BASC said so.

No it's because (like many I suspect, allthough perhaps i'm wrong) I don't want to pay £140 (or more) to renew my certificates.

 

[Miki]

Originally Posted by gus308
I have just been to the local health centre to hand in my form to get it filled out. On asking how much i would pay for this service i was informed it would cost £60.00 and this is the price that has been recomended by police scotland.



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Don`t need to get it in writing, just off the phone with police scotland and , yep the lass confirmed that was indeed correct they are recomending a fee of £60.0. According to her this is quite reasonable as some doc`s were charging up to £130. TBH it really wasn`t going to be long before some practices saw this as an earner, its the same in all walks of life, some people will take advantage.

Who did you speak to Gus, which Police Scotland office... ?
I'd be more than surprised that Fraser Sturgeon-Lamb (or any of his officers) would reccommend a fee as that is strictly a matter bertween us (the patient/applicant) and his/her Doctor.

 

[gus308]

I`m assuming it was Inverness hq as that was the no i rang but as you can be transfered anywhere i would be cautious.

 

[JonnyMcD]

My doctors will sign the letter but won't put the marker on my file, police Scotland won't issue my licence . I paid my gp to have my letter filled in ( £15) . I have a shotgun and licence but because of the new rules of putting a marker on my file my application is currently on pause untill the gp's in my area agree to put the markers on.

 

[LuckyEddie]

My question is where is the BASC in all this?
Why aren't they more vociferous in this and make a defiant stance
Or is there too much of a Shedden - Lamb friendliness?

Come on BASC what's your answer?
Are you going to stand up or carry on hiding in the corner and making sure you're ok yourselves???

 

[Lord V]

My doctors will sign the letter but won't put the marker on my file, police Scotland won't issue my licence . I paid my gp to have my letter filled in ( £15) . I have a shotgun and licence but because of the new rules of putting a marker on my file my application is currently on pause untill the gp's in my area agree to put the markers on.

What on earth is their objection to placing the marker? Surely that's the easiest and most sensible part!

 

[rodkayak]

I am a GP and can see no reason why they cannot code the form with a marker. It's 15 seconds work. I can also tell you that trying to organize GPs is like herding cats

What on earth is their objection to placing the marker? Surely that's the easiest and most sensible part!

 

[rodkayak]

The real problem is that 90 % of gps in South Wales are not filling in the form. This will have consequences. I feel the police would prefer Scottish option but are prevented by the law AT THE MOMENT. This really needs to be sorted out for everybody's sake

 

[mealiejimmy]

There's another indication of where this is going contained in those FELWG minutes:

"In light of the recommendations made by the HMIC, it was not for this group to withdraw from the set process based on significant public safety issues, and based on Police actions to support Public safety if we were to withdraw from the process then it would be difficult to recover this in the future."

The recommendation to the Home Office in the HMIC report referred to above is probably this:

Recommendation 11
Immediately, and with a view to implementation within 18 months, the Home Office should ensure that the current proposals for the sharing of medical information between medical professionals and the police for the purpose of firearms licensing, allow the police effectively to discharge their duty to assess the medical suitability of an applicant for a section 1 firearms or shotgun certificate. This should have due regard to ensuring the system:
1. does not allow licensing to take place without a current medical report from the applicant’s GP, obtained and paid for by the applicant in advance of an application for the granting or renewal of a certificate, and which meets requirements prescribed by law; and
2. is supported by a process whereby GPs are required, during the currency of a certificate, to notify the police of any changes to the medical circumstances (including mental health) of the certificate holder which are relevant to the police assessment of suitability for such a certificate, and within which the certificate holder is statutorily required to notify the police of any such changes.

https://www.justiceinspectorates.go...ads/firearms-licensing-targeting-the-risk.pdf

That HMIC report is dated September 2015 and recommendation 11 is directed at the Home Office, not Chief Constables.
The current Home Office Guidance is dated April 2016 so the HO had plenty of time to consider the HMIC report and in particular recommendation 11.
It's notable that the HO guidance completely ignores recommendation 11 and makes no reference to a current medical report obtained and paid for by the applicant's GP.
Actually, the guidance says pretty much the exact oposite of what the HMIC wanted
However, FELWEG seem to think that the HMIC report is the word of God.
I had a Police Scotland Inspector quote me that excat recommendation and when I pointed out the timeline and the fact that the HO had completely ignored the recommendation, she went into a huff and wouldn't speak to me any more!!
They don't seem to understand that parliament makes the law not HMIC.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Lord V]

I'm not actually a Dr, but a consultant Engineer - I don't fart unless I'm paid for it. (we're nearly as bad as lawyers) I therefore have some sympathy with GP's being asked to perform a task beyond the scope set out in their contract. 'Some' being the operative word in that sentence... I'm just trying to see the flip side.

I agree its complete shambles - essentially in Scotland it could be your GP that decides your renewal/grant rather than the police, which is most certainly not the point of the guidance or law (I believe.) That decision rests with the police and they should not be trying to divest that responsibility.

If I were a Dr and the patient was well known to me then I would agree that £20 is pretty reasonable given that its two or three tick boxes and a quick refresh read of the notes. If I barely know the person (which would be unfortunate for those not ill often, including myself - seen the Dr about 6 times in my entire life! or recently moved) then it may take me longer and I may contact the patient to make an appointment to discuss. If the patient makes the appointment then I'm sure this would be encompassed by the NHS and no charge levied, like being called in to discuss test results. Again, I think £20- £50 is pretty reasonable as a punter, but I realise that based on that price list it could be a lot more than we want...

In either case I would be tempted not tick the first (or last box, I cant remember which) that states that in my opinion the person is safe to hold a shotgun/firearm and return with a note that its the polices responsibility to determine not mine. That whole question gets my liability/litigation senses tingling... The other two questions are factual - Does the patient suffer from one of the notifiable conditions, have you placed a marker on their records. Easy and pretty safe.

I wrote that then came home to find this letter from my Dr. Can't say Idisagree with his position. But at least he hasn't charged me for It!

Will see how avon and somerset interpret it....

 

[AN DU RU FOX]

Yea thats what this needs a boatload of trick cyclists involved...no wonder everyones packing it in.

 

[Lord V]

Yea thats what this needs a boatload of trick cyclists involved...no wonder everyones packing it in.

It doesn't. But the I agree that the question from the police form is asking for a medical opinion rather than a reporting of the facts.

Ie the question is wrong, not the intent.

 

[skywull]

I am a GP. It costs us 800 £ a working hour to run the place (pay the mortgage, staff etc). I am afraid we cannot do and take responsibility for administrative work for nothing. If the business cannot pay it's bills we could potentially loose our homes to the bank

can you give an example of when this has happened ?

 

[skywull]

Thanks for your understanding. I feel a charge of between 15 to 30 pounds depending on the work is not unreasonable. The money goes to the practice not me directly. I have to go to a coroner's court next week to give evidence. They gave me 8 days notice and a locum will be £200 for the afternoon if we can get one. We may not get the money back. If there is any incident with a FAC holder including suicide, we will be called tho give evidence in a coroners court and account for our decision and possibly face legal action and GMC censure

again, can you give an example of when this has happened

 

[kes]

again, can you give an example of when this has happened

"If there is any incident with an FAC holder"-about as rare as a terrorist attack, maybe rarer ; would you charge for attending one of those or is that part of the NHS salary ?

 

[Orion]

That HMIC report is dated September 2015 and recommendation 11 is directed at the Home Office, not Chief Constables.
The current Home Office Guidance is dated April 2016 so the HO had plenty of time to consider the HMIC report and in particular recommendation 11.
It's notable that the HO guidance completely ignores recommendation 11 and makes no reference to a current medical report obtained and paid for by the applicant's GP.
Actually, the guidance says pretty much the exact oposite of what the HMIC wanted
However, FELWEG seem to think that the HMIC report is the word of God.
I had a Police Scotland Inspector quote me that excat recommendation and when I pointed out the timeline and the fact that the HO had completely ignored the recommendation, she went into a huff and wouldn't speak to me any more!!
They don't seem to understand that parliament makes the law not HMIC.

Cheers

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

That's pretty much what I was highlighting - the 'police' in their highest firearms licensing guise as NPCC FELWG, appear to be aligning themselves with what HMIC in their report would wish the Home Office to implement, rather than carrying out the bidding of the HO and following the Guidance (and the law). Methinks some are getting above their station in there and, as time goes by, I'm becoming more and more in favour of certain excesses within the police service being reined in - and not just within firearms licensing.

 

[drut]

If memory serves me correctly,the involvement of medical markers/GP's involvement was trumpeted as an advantage & leverage for 10yr certs by BASC.Now,with the about turn by BMA/GP's,Police Scotland's peculiar interpretation of H.O. guidelines and Durham's ACC chair of FELWG(despite the Michael Atherton debacle showing they had not followed H.O.guidelines & a slating from the coroner) I believe the resulting situation is a farce:causing a myriad problems with no benefit to public safety.
http://shootingshed....tember-2016.pdf is worth a read.

As an aside,I hope David BASC has not permanently stopped posting on the forum,he has always tried to help despite the flak although I must admit I wish BASC or any other shooting organisation had teeth + the will to use them

Sorry:FELWG minutes link does not seem to work http://shootingshed.co.uk/wp/2015/09/felwg-firearms-explosives-licensing-working-group-minutes-registry/ & scroll down to sept 2016 should do it

 

[Orion]

If memory serves me correctly,the involvement of medical markers/GP's involvement was trumpeted as an advantage & leverage for 10yr certs by BASC.

And every indication from the EU (and we are and will be bound to harmonisation with whatever comes from the latest weapons directive despite Brexit) is that they will move the more 'liberal' firearms licensing regimes to 5 & 3 year certification - not the other way!

 

[drut]

And every indication from the EU (and we are and will be bound to harmonisation with whatever comes from the latest weapons directive despite Brexit) is that they will move the more 'liberal' firearms licensing regimes to 5 & 3 year certification - not the other way!

Totally agree! Hope we don't go back to 3yr:but wish renewals/grants were as straightforward as they used to be.10yr always seemed "Pie in the Sky" to me.

 

[Lord V]

The plot thickens...

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/gps-firearms-licensing-process-83997