BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry.

[jall55]

It's a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics that everyone that shoots can choose to get involved in whether or not they are members of any organisation. For example, BASC sometimes issues a call for voluntary restraint on the shooting of waterfowl during prolonged periods of severe winter weather. You might not be a member of BASC but you might act on it? Woodcock and brown hare also spring to mind. The same for codes of practice.

As regards policy work - BASC's argument against Health and Safety Executive proposals to ban lead shot for live quarry shooting is that the voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting is reducing the risk to a wide range of bird species in terrestrial habitats. And that the shooting sector must be allowed time to develop non-lead shotgun ammunition due to a world shortage of components and the need for manufacturers and assemblers to source new machinery to produce lead shot alternatives and biodegradable wads for all shotgun calibers.

Hope that helps provide some wider context - but bottom line is that its your choice whether to move away from using lead shot for live quarry shooting for the sake of the birds picking up the lead shot and suffering ill effects from that.

Conor - i like much of what you say - but to try and pull on heart strings " the sake of birds picking up the lead and suffering ill effects from that " is wrong - how do we know the alternatives given time are not to be worse ?

The opposite argument of wounding with steel is

 

[scoby270]

Conor - i like much of what you say - but to try and pull on heart strings " the sake of birds picking up the lead and suffering ill effects from that " is wrong - how do we know the alternatives given time are not to be worse ?

The opposite argument of wounding with steel is

Literally just about to say the same thing.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Conor - i like much of what you say - but to try and pull on heart strings " the sake of birds picking up the lead and suffering ill effects from that " is wrong - how do we know the alternatives given time are not to be worse ?

The opposite argument of wounding with steel is

I appreciate you are coming to this with an open mind. The best would be a phone call to talk through all your concerns about steel shot - which is not surprising given the amount of misinformation spread on the internet about that. Or to come along to a BASC sustainable shooting day even better still.

 

[jall55]

I appreciate you are coming to this with an open mind. The best would be a phone call to talk through all your concerns about steel shot - which is not surprising given the amount of misinformation spread on the internet about that. Or to come along to a BASC sustainable shooting day even better still.

Im probably a little bit more informed than you think - One of your chaps - which i thought you knew - has been to our place 4 times - to demonstrate to my various contacts and friends - perhaps now over 200 unique individuals of all ages and walks of life.

I have used it - it does kill ok i think
it does break clays ok

I worry about ricochets
If clay grounds can use it - and they shoot over so much of the countryside i cant see why live shooters cant
I wonder if we will just jump from frying pan to fire with changing to steel

Thanks

 

[Boosh]

So Conor, why should we voluntarily transition away from lead in rifle rounds for target and vermin shooting?
I answer with my thoughts shall I, to try to take the heat off shooting as a whole because game shooting is the next target.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Im probably a little bit more informed than you think - One of your chaps - which i thought you knew - has been to our place 4 times - to demonstrate to my various contacts and friends - perhaps now over 200 unique individuals of all ages and walks of life.

I have used it - it does kill ok i think
it does break clays ok

I worry about ricochets
If clay grounds can use it - and they shoot over so much of the countryside i cant see why live shooters cant
I wonder if we will just jump from frying pan to fire with changing to steel

Thanks

Thanks, yes I am aware of the visits. Clay grounds shoot over a relatively small amount of land compared to live quarry, which covers two-thirds land mass of UK.

 

[jall55]

Thanks, yes I am aware of the visits. Clay grounds shoot over a relatively small amount of land compared to live quarry, which covers two-thirds land mass of UK.

Conor
So just to clarify please

A clay shoot on my land can use lead in the future ?

A clay shoot on a large estate - such as Chatsworth can use lead ?

Or is it they cant and it has to be strictly a clay ground

Thanks

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

So Conor, why should we voluntarily transition away from lead in rifle rounds for target and vermin shooting?
I answer with my thoughts shall I, to try to take the heat off shooting as a whole because game shooting is the next target.

The voluntary transition is about encouraging people to move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. People are trying out/using non-lead rifle ammunition for target and live quarry shooting for various reasons but there is no campaign by the shooting organisations. Very much your personal choice whatever you wish to do.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@jall55 it is all voluntary whatever people/shoots decide to do and their reasons for doing so.

 

[Steve Q]

I like the BASC (and other organisations) approach.
If we agree to a voluntary transition over a sensible period of time, then a total ban (e.g by legislation) is not necessary.
Those shooters who do not wish to transition will not have to, but the reality is that over a relatively short period of time, newer, younger shooters will take their place, and who will be bought into the steel mindset.
Either peer pressure, or market forces (such as manufacturers ceasing to sell lead ammo) will impose non-toxic soon enough - we just need to agree a long enough transition period for the reluctant to either evolve or retire.
Apologies to anyone who takes offence, but there is history to similar changes........slate to paper, horses to cars, sail to steam, coal to petrol / diesel to electric. Change is inevitable - you bend with the winds of change, or become extinct (apologies for the mixed metaphors).
Other opinions are available!

 

[old 30-06]

Connor O'Gorman, Lead shot has been used in very large quantities for over 100 years. I have over 50 years of many different forms of shooting under my belt. I have never seen "birds picking up the lead shot and suffering ill effects from that". If it were true, then when wildfowlers went to non lead there would be hundreds of thousands of "extra" birds flying around. I have not sen them, have you ?

 

[Liveonce]

I like the BASC (and other organisations) approach.
If we agree to a voluntary transition over a sensible period of time, then a total ban (e.g by legislation) is not necessary.
Those shooters who do not wish to transition will not have to, but the reality is that over a relatively short period of time, newer, younger shooters will take their place, and who will be bought into the steel mindset.
Either peer pressure, or market forces (such as manufacturers ceasing to sell lead ammo) will impose non-toxic soon enough - we just need to agree a long enough transition period for the reluctant to either evolve or retire.
Apologies to anyone who takes offence, but there is history to similar changes........slate to paper, horses to cars, sail to steam, coal to petrol / diesel to electric. Change is inevitable - you bend with the winds of change, or become extinct (apologies for the mixed metaphors).
Other opinions are available!

However all the time lead shot is available as the cheapest option it will be the choice of the majority.

slate to paper, horses to cars, sail to steam were also about convenience, improved efficiency and reduced costs for the consumer, not so with moving to non toxic shot and biodegradable wads.

 

[old 30-06]

The shooting organisations are fixated with the move away from lead. I would be far happier if they concentrated on plastic instead. Every time the (shotgun) trigger is pulled a plastic wad enters the enviroment, and a plastic case could be discarded there also. Paper cartridges and a bio-degradable fibre wad would engineer out this problem immediately and would be be a really good thing for them to concentrate on.

 

[Heym SR20]

I take the view of most medics, scientists and the likes of World Health Organistion that lead is really toxic substance. It doesn’t kill quickly, but it fundamentally affects an animal or birds immune system. There are now approved cancer therapies that remove lead and other heavy metals from the body that are showing remarkable results on fast acting and “incurable” cancers.

The efforts of the BASC and other shooting organisations have given the shooting industry a huge kick up the backside. I am using non toxic ammo for all shooting of wild animals and birds. I use steel in 12, 16 and 20 bore with no issues. And monolithics in rifles are a much better bullet than the old lead cored.

There is still work to be done, especially in 28 and 410. My 410 remains a clay gun for the time being, but given 410 cartridges are about the most expensive there is, it only gets occasional outings.

22lr needs a faster twist rate to work with non toxic, but a rebarrel, or a barrel liner would be a good solution for many guns. The 17 HMR with non toxic ammo is now used by many agencies for vermin control.

I appreciate that many on the SD and within the shooting community do not share my views.

 

[Liveonce]

The shooting organisations are fixated with the move away from lead. I would be far happier if they concentrated on plastic instead. Every time the (shotgun) trigger is pulled a plastic wad enters the enviroment, and a plastic case could be discarded there also. Paper cartridges and a bio-degradable fibre wad would engineer out this problem immediately and would be be a really good thing for them to concentrate on.

The U.K. is the single biggest market for fibre wad cartridges so, no not every time the trigger is pulled is a plastic wad entering the environment, in fact I have never shot a cartridge with a plastic wad. But this obviously requires the use of lead shot. All local clay grounds and farms round this way are fibre wads only,

 

[AGR]

Connor O'Gorman, Lead shot has been used in very large quantities for over 100 years. I have over 50 years of many different forms of shooting under my belt. I have never seen "birds picking up the lead shot and suffering ill effects from that". If it were true, then when wildfowlers went to non lead there would be hundreds of thousands of "extra" birds flying around. I have not sen them, have you ?

I have had poults pick up lead shot in a release pen and slowly die of lead poisoning.
Partly my own fault, although there was grit available, I was given some mixed wheat and oilseed rape, the birds obviously thought all small round pellets were food. It was a very dry year and I believe the shot was scratched out whilst dust bathing.
Another keeper who had fenced a copse historically used by pigeon shooters had the same thing happen.

 

[timbrayford]

I like the BASC (and other organisations) approach.
If we agree to a voluntary transition over a sensible period of time, then a total ban (e.g by legislation) is not necessary.
Those shooters who do not wish to transition will not have to, but the reality is that over a relatively short period of time, newer, younger shooters will take their place, and who will be bought into the steel mindset.
Either peer pressure, or market forces (such as manufacturers ceasing to sell lead ammo) will impose non-toxic soon enough - we just need to agree a long enough transition period for the reluctant to either evolve or retire.
Apologies to anyone who takes offence, but there is history to similar changes........slate to paper, horses to cars, sail to steam, coal to petrol / diesel to electric. Change is inevitable - you bend with the winds of change, or become extinct (apologies for the mixed metaphors).
Other opinions are available!

All the more puzzling why BASC should be promoting ballistically inferior steel as an alternative!

 

[jall55]

I take the view of most medics, scientists and the likes of World Health Organistion that lead is really toxic substance. It doesn’t kill quickly, but it fundamentally affects an animal or birds immune system. There are now approved cancer therapies that remove lead and other heavy metals from the body that are showing remarkable results on fast acting and “incurable” cancers.

The efforts of the BASC and other shooting organisations have given the shooting industry a huge kick up the backside. I am using non toxic ammo for all shooting of wild animals and birds. I use steel in 12, 16 and 20 bore with no issues. And monolithics in rifles are a much better bullet than the old lead cored.

There is still work to be done, especially in 28 and 410. My 410 remains a clay gun for the time being, but given 410 cartridges are about the most expensive there is, it only gets occasional outings.

22lr needs a faster twist rate to work with non toxic, but a rebarrel, or a barrel liner would be a good solution for many guns. The 17 HMR with non toxic ammo is now used by many agencies for vermin control.

I appreciate that many on the SD and within the shooting community do not share my views.

I have been out foxing tonight and keep mulling so much of this over

I looked up and across our valley and then realised that the majority of the fields i could see were all dying off as they have just been poisoned with round up - prior to drilling - I wonder if we should have bigger things on our minds than a bit of lead ?

 

[Pedro]

I do wonder how many of our birds and animals live long enough in the wild for any lead poisoning to take effect. A Blackbird for example lives between 2 and 4 years on average. Mallards somewhere between 5 and 10 years, once they are adults and haven't been predated. Around a quarter manage to make it from egg to fledgling. Swans do better, probably because they are big enough to deter predators. I suppose really it'll depend on how long they can survive having ingested lead. Which in turn will depend on the quantity of lead ingested. So many imponderables.

 

[jall55]

I do wonder how many of our birds and animals live long enough in the wild for any lead poisoning to take effect. A Blackbird for example lives between 2 and 4 years on average. Mallards somewhere between 5 and 10 years, once they are adults and haven't been predated. Around a quarter manage to make it from egg to fledgling. Swans do better, probably because they are big enough to deter predators. I suppose really it'll depend on how long they can survive having ingested lead. Which in turn will depend on the quantity of lead ingested. So many imponderables.

Pedro- if im reading the GWCT correctly they die in weeks