Bavarians are great

[Thar]

Hi Stone

I can see to a degree were you are coming from, but in my experience which in the main is stalking roe deer and red deer in Scotland on Forestry blocks some of your reasoning does not apply, and does not tally with my own dog work.

A good deer dog should be able to bring an injured Red stag to bay by barking at it, and be agile enough to keep its self out harms way until you arrive. (I was shown a trick by a FC ranger how to teach your dog to keep out the way of antlers) Ok you wouldn’t want to start a new inexperienced dog with a stag but once one knows the game it should be able to deal with the situation. I have clocked my own dog a 27mph behind a quad, it will not take it long to catch a deer with a bullet it.

Roe deer are territorial if a dog is tracking them they keep to there own territory so although they might run round in circles they will not cover a lot of distance from the point they are shot.

We are legally able to cross a boundary when tracking a woundered deer in Scotland so no problem there.

Surely when you approach a deer with you attached to the dog does not the deer hear you smell you coming and move before you are able to shoot again, injured deer in my experience usually head for the thickest piece of cover they can get to, and lay up or head for water. In thick cover crawling on your hands and knees is shooting a realistic proposition, remembering back stops ect?

I can see the logic in having something like a Tekcal on a line as it will never run a deer down so you are going to have to dispatch it yourself, but using a large dog that way seems in many cases inhumane and inefficient.

I think the cocker was a poor deer dog if it could not stop a CWD, my own and my mates ESSs used to pull down Roe deer no trouble.

Ok if you have roads about then use one, but other wise I am not conviced.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[Jagare]

yes you are missing something Thar. Stones post sums it up quite nicely.
It been shown Here that most deer are found within a 100 mtrs. The ones that i have tracked over the years have never gone very far before laying down. By tracking on a lead you can get a finishing shot of before the deer jumps up again and the dog courses it around the county. Its about having a trained dog and a trained owner who can read the what the dog is doing. There is sometimes a need to loose the dog off to push a wounded animal from thick cover.Here that is mainly moose and boar. Not good for your health to go pokeing around in thick cover after wounded boar or moose
In an ideal world its best to have a 2 man team one to track the dog and another with the weapon.
In any form of hunting or tracking in Sweden its unacceptable for the dog to drag down any animal.
When they talk about 40 hour trails or as its done here, 600mtrs at 12-24 old 1/3 ltr blood. Its like field trials for gun dogs in the UK. There are many people who just train there dogs for tracking trials and the dog will never see or track a wounded animal in its life. So these trial whilst they have their place are of no more meaning than the average game shooter in England having a FTC as a gun dog.
The stalker needs a dog of what ever choosen breed to track and bring to a end the suffering of a wounded beast. As paintandpins said trained dogs Don't come out of a can.

 

[sikamalc]

Ohh dont worry boys I do not keep Todd on a long lead. Once the deer is hit or down he is off the harness and made to sit. Then I proceed to the area where the deer was shot with him by my side. Then he is made to sit again.

Then I tell him " find the deer" normally it is dead within a few yards. But if as last weekend (sorry Nick) it was taken a bit far back, he will follow and give tongue to it. This he did twice, although on the secondtime I called him back which he responded to straight away as I knew we were getting near to the deer. I then asked him to find the deer again and this time it was about 80yds away and he beyed it under a laurel bush, which would have made it very hard to find. There was no blood trail to follow as the bullet had exited out of the far stomach wall, after quartering across the deer.

He also found a second Roe which appeared to have not been hit as there was no reaction to the shot. But after I checked it out and allowed him off the harness he discovered it about 60yds away heart shot.

Does your dog undertake such work Stone Like I said it depends of how [/b]YOU train your dog. A good dog takes a time to reach its full potential, and also a certain level of intellegence is required by the dog to access a situation, and all are different, but as I said if you want a dog for deer then get the right dog to do the right job.

 

[doghound]

Thar, how do you hear your dog on a windy night a mile away fighting to keep a big stag at bay. How long is he suposed to wait for you to find him a day, a week? Me thinks when you really need your dog, you may end up losing him!

No deer with a bullet in wants to run about, regardless of where the shot is. I have heard that even deer that are lightly shot Leg/flesh etc lay down or stand separated from the herd. Given sufficient time they are very reluctant to stand if approached quietly. A line trained dog that leads you in quietly gives you a second chance to get it right.

 

[Thar]

Hi Jagare thanks for taking time to respond.

By tracking on a lead you can get a finishing shot of before the deer jumps up again and the dog courses it around the county..

I think there is a difference in having a athletic dog that is capably of catching a injured deer in seconds and one that because of it size or build chases a deer because that is all it is capable of.

its mainly moose and boar. Not good for your health to go pokeing around in thick cover after wounded boar or moose
..

I have hunted boar with dogs were to actually shoot them with a firearms is seen as unsporting, you stick them with a knife. I have a ripped glove here from one encounter with a boars tusk, but that is another story. As in general we don’t have these animals here, it is not a consideration for the UK.

In any form of hunting or tracking in Sweden its unacceptable for the dog to drag down any animal.

Particularly with roe deer I don’t see the reason for this, a good dog will kill a injured roe in seconds once it knows its job, and again it is not relevant here in the UK.

as its done here, 600mtrs at 12-24 old 1/3 ltr blood.

That sounds like a more reasonable and practical test for a UK deer dog.

The stalker needs a dog of what ever choosen breed to track and bring to a end the suffering of a wounded beast. As paintandpins said trained dogs Don't come out of a can.

I agree totally with that statement, my concern is that people are looking at Europe and copying what is done over there without really understanding what conditions they will really encounter in the UK. I believe there is a lot we can learn, but it needs adapting to the UK law and conditions. I would say that almost any breed of gundog with the right training will follow a 12hr trail which is more than adequate for our conditions; from there you need to look at what other skills if any your chosen breed can bring to the field.
There seems a focus on tracking for tracking sake which may lead to increase deer suffering, which surely is exactly what we are trying to avoid?

Of cause you must buy a dog you like over all else, so if you want a poodle for a deer dog get one.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[Muddy]

dogs

I have followed this with great interest i dont think it matters what dog you use to find a deer that has run on after the shot into cover . I have a terrier a labrador and gsp . All will follow up a trail of a shot deer no problem next day also if shot at night and deer runs into cover and dog not with you . Now i know where thar stalks and believe you me a dog on a lead is useless , you try getting into a block of sitka with a dog its impossible and the chances of getting a shot of is even harder as the branches come down to the floor . so a dog that will secure the deer till you get there is an asset . If its a roe the dog may kill it if it a red or sika then if they can hold it you will probably have to kill it with a knife . This in its self is not very funny i can assure you having seen my son wrestling a hind with a dog on its neck just where you want to stick it . In england where we have open woodland a dog on a lead is probably the best method and once the deer is found you will probably be able to shoot it again quite safely . My GSP will work on or of the lead and over a three year period has worked all british deer no problem , the hardest were sika in the borders one stag ran 600 mts at last light but the dog found it no problem the second was a hind that done 1 and a half miles that was chest shot and needed a second shot as it still had its head up this was shot it a Forrest jumped out and crossed a tributary of the tweed twice before laying up in some bracken on the open hill without a dog this most definitely would not have been found . Its personal choice what dog you have or get they will all do the job some better than others it does not have to be a specialist deer dog .I over many year stalking without a dog and the latter 10 with a dog i have lost a few but very few when i have had a dog with me and none with my GSP . in looking back i find that we as stalkers dont look far enough from the strike position mayby 100 metres or so in a big ark its not until you use a good dog you realize in the past did i look far enough in a big enough ark should i have gone down there ore up there you will never know . Many years ago duncan shot a roe it ran into cover we looked for ages could not find it no dog so we gave up after about an hour carried on stalking got back to car in a parking spot the deer lay dead next to it thats luck for you . On another occasion duncan shot a roe on a steep bank radioed me i came to help him find it no joy we gave up came back to the car it lay dead in the drainage ditch on th passengers side of the car i didnt see it as i got out the other side . Shot deer do many things and any dog is an asset to the stalker pedigree or not and i for one would not knock any body for their choice in breed at the end of the day a trained dog is an asset to its owner and can only add to the enjoyment of a days stalking whether we get a shot or not . I may be wrong but are dogs getting like a designer accessory now for some people who may only shoot a couple a year but want to be seen with one like a nice rifle ect awaiting incoming on that last bit

 

[stone]

Tahr
that is why i said horses for courses
each stalker and stalking situations require a dog to hav its own merits as for chioce of dog
sometimes what you buy or aqquire may not be what you want
i hav a black lab bitch who came from good parentage and was looking promising as a pup to turn out to be a big girl , till she stopped growing
but none the less i wouldn't change her for the world so will make do with what i hav and work on that
but hell it aint worth arguing over dog choice but certainly worth sharing the knowledge obtained through working them, no matter what species of deer you stalk or country you live in, but will be glad to hear more about your training methods , it may help others that like a dog to work in that way

Malc
as for sika
as you know she is a Black lab bitch, age just over 2, she accompanies on almost every stalk
walks to heel of the lead and scents everything but at my pace
indicates to me if she can sense deer
if i shoot one she is more than capable of tracking it on scent alone,
let alone following a hot blood scent
hell she can track a cold blood trail over 600 yards the next day,
i hav no wish to hav her bring down a deer , after seeing the effects a stag had when it had gored a mates dog or bring a deer to bay, but i can let her track live deer by hoof scent alone , getting pretty good at that
even if it has not been shot so no problems there
so a gut shot one with no visible trail to human eye does not mean there is no scent for a dog to follow
sika will work on her on instinct but not out of my controll
my actuall plan is to hav her to track with out a lead but at my walking pace, difficult yes but not out of her capabilities as she is halfway there already
on a tracking lead she does not pull , no matter what , last thing i need is a dog that pulls on the lead or will not get out of the way when trying to finish off a wounded animal, baying dogs will often be in the line of fire so thats when you hav to keep your cool and take the chances when offered
but she is only a lab at the end of the day, and proving to be a very good one at that
but as for Todd you should be over the moon with him , as he is doing everything you ask him to do
and that is all most dog owners ask ,well i do
those that want more than that......... well, good luck to them
remember you are a proffessional stalker,others are not, myself included and those are the ones we are trying to help with the knowlewdge we hav obtained, on and off the field in choice of dog and methods of training
ATB
stone

 

[doghound]

Muddy

Reminds me of a time when Jagare and I were stalking some fallow next to a sitka thicket. He shot a fallow which ran into the thicket, so he loosed his terrier.

On following it in he came across the fallow pricket with the dog hanging onto one ear very much on its feet. As it spun round he threw an arm over its neck and pushed the knife into the sticking point. Just as he did so the pricket threw its head up and caught old jagare lugs right under his eye.

When I saw him on the field he was bleeding worse than the deer he was dragging from the tiniest cut under his eye.

When we gralloched the deer it was like soup inside heaven knows how it stayed on its feet.

So I see where you are coming from with the dog in a thicket thing.

 

[Thar]

I find Malc and Muddy’s posts interesting and identify a lot with what they have posted. A couple of points, one is where Malc mentions that he has recovered deer with his dog that have no indication of being hit, I have been there a couple of times and without a dog it would have been easy to assume the deer had been missed. As Muddy points out if you are stalking in Sitka plantation, especially if you have thicket stage growth trying to crawl in there attached to a dog with your rifle and shoot a deer would be fun, it is a knife job and a good dog.

I also agree with Muddy’s statement that some people get a certain breed of dog as a fashion accessory rather than a breed that would be more appropriate to the stalking they under take. That said I agree with you Stone that you will only do justice to a dog you like.

I see Stone that once your dog has more experience that you will work it off the lead, will your dog be trained to the Totverbeller method or to use a bringsel?

I was given this advice by a FC ranger on how to teach your dog to avoid a stags antlers, get a old set of antlers, start to play with you your dog getting it excited and jumping about play fighting ect then hit it on the head with the antlers do not change your attitude keep laughing and smiling yourself, play with you dog some more giving it a tap on the head every now and again with the antler. The dog soon learns that antlers are bad news and will keep out the way of them while continuing to play with you.

I think horses for courses may be true; I can always work my dog on a lead if I think it appropriate, but when hunting roe deer up here, which a lot of guys from England also do I can see no advantage in it and think that it will only lead to more suffering to the deer.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[MarkH]

Hi Guys

From what I have read there appear to be three schools of though on what follow up represents.
1. The Lurcher Man in that he sets the dog loose on the trail and it chases and finds or brings down the deer using lurcher or GWP.
2. The British Sporting Gundog - walks to heel, sits and finds/marks the deer in the same way one follows up a pheasant - This is what most UK hunters call deer tracking and in most cases it works well. Scent trails are short and warm. There is some confusion about the dog giving tougue when tracking which I dont think is a good thing and only barking when the deer is located (Totverbeller) which is a good thing.

Most any good gundog will do the above. Purebreed, x breed, heinz 57 , it does not matter too much as long as it can react to a stop signal correctly and is half way steady.

3. Cold scent tracking ie 4hours old requires a 50/50 collaberation betwen dog and trainer to find the beast. The long line in essential as a bloodhound on a scent trail is a difficult beast to stop and will track right across a boundry/road if need be. Also they are trained to follow blood and footscent so if there is no blood to follow they can still follow the distress hormones from the scent glands of the leg. The dogs should not bark while tracking. Once close to the wouned animal it should sit and allow the trainer to finish ant wounded animal. The dog can and will work off a line but only over short distances such as 100m to maintain verbal control. Hounds behave like hounds for a reason, they are headstrong by nature that what you need.

Mark

 

[WAYNE DAVIES]

Hi All
I'm new to training dogs for deer, I've had spaniels for years but I'm on my first dedicated deer dog "Max" a 19 month old GSP.

I can see the the reasoning behind everyone's methods at the end of the day it's what suits you and your type of stalking.

Personally,
I want my dog to walk to heel when I stalk and sense deer I haven't seen, drop and stay when i crawl, track a cold scent on a lead, use air scent off the lead looking for a roe a summer wheat field, follow a blood trail on or off the lead, if the sh*t really hits the fan to pull a deer down and I nearly forgot to sit under a high seat without making a sound.

A lot to ask? I think my dog is more than capable of doing all these , 75% he can probably do already if he masters the rest its probably more down to my training than his ability.
At the end of the day what ever dog you use he will find more deer than the one you haven't got.

Wayne

 

[MarkH]

I think Guy Wallace wrote that the perfect universal dog for UK game was the black Lab but if he had to chose only one dog it would be a GWP dog because it would give him something to do.

Its not difficult to get a dog trained to be a jack of all trades but dont expect it to be become a master of all of them.

Play to the dogs strengths
which is basically if you dog has long legs its going to air scent better than a dog with short legs. Hounds like to hunt for themselves and never let yout teckle off the lead unless you like digging

 

[stone]

I see Stone that once your dog has more experience that you will work it off the lead, will your dog be trained to the Totverbeller method or to use a bringsel?

hi Tahr
thank you for the advice on the antlers, i had heard about this but never tried it
as for my bitch
sika is going through a training scedule to suit my own needs
i want her to track a blood trail like she is on a tracking lead but with out the lead
here are a couple of clips from a fallow i shot tonight that ran after a good chest shot,
please note i hav not dimmed the sound ,this is as it is
bullet struck high heart and lung
first clip Sika is off a lead, tracking a warm scent with a swirling breaze

as we drew nearer to the dead deer , she got a bit excited , so on went the tracking lead for a little control
as for some reason she had one on her , but she is still a little young

one for jagare
as i know he luvs this type of pic

sorry Alan could not resist
the main aim like i said is to get her to track at walking pace of a lead
so thick cover will hav no bearing , as on the tracking lead it will get caught up , this can be seen in one of the clips, so this way and i still hav my dog close and under controll even in the dark,
all comments and advice on this are appreciated
sarcastic remarks are not
regards
stone

 

[243varmint]

Hi Rich
Sika is looking good, she is coming om a treat mate.

I have been following this thread with interest because I work my 2 spaniels for shotgun work and beating etc for which they are very good.
Have never done anything regarding using a dog for stalking and was thinking about using my older one as he is slowing down a bit ( it's only taken 9 years).
So I think what Stone is doing by putting on his Dog Days will open up a wealth of konwledge for peolpe new to Deer and Dogs.
Most hunting people be it fur or feather know the value of having a dog.

I must admit I hate pheasant shooting without my 2 spaniels by my side, I get just as much enjoyment watching my dogs work as I do shooting.

I will at some point be looking at getting a specific deer dog but if one of my 2 can do the job in the meantime so be it.
Looking forward to the Dog Day so I can get some ideas to go in the right direction.

Sorry for going on a bit

Jonathon

 

[MarkH]

Hi Stone

I would start with the lead on immediatly every time to try and steady her up a little and control her level of concentration. The lead adds a little resistance and gentle control to reduce the tendency for casting about too early. I dont go fishing as you know but treat the line like a fishing line, let a little out , hold gently, release and take up the slack as necessary. Send calm control down the wire.

Regards

Mark

 

[stone]

Malc
as for sika
as you know she is a Black lab bitch, age just over 2, she accompanies me on almost every stalk

ooopps sorry Malc
sika is only 19 months old , my mistake

cheers Mark
sometimes you just can't help running before you can walk
but i'm getting there

 

[sikamalc]

Well done, its a great feeling when the dog you have trained is giving the results after all the hard work you have put in.

Its also nice to have a companion whilst you are out stalking, and a good deer dog certainly fills the space.

 

[Jagare]

Here's a real deer dog. He was one mad, bad mean arsed dog. He came out on every stalk outing for 15 years. Died when he was 18. No deer or dog was to big for him to have a go at.
Stone, all pictures are with the dog poseing with deer non were runners

 

[Muntiacus]

Hi Stone
Just watched the videos you posted, very good.
One problem, the wife walked in the room (you cannot see the screen of my computor from the door) all she could hear was a male voice going "good girl, good girl" - been accused of watching porn

Thanks

 

[tika.308]

Muntiacus
now that made me laugh