BDS 'Advanced Stalkers Qualification'

[palmer_mike]

"We are not a deerstalking fraternity but rather a Charity that promotes the welfare of, and interest in, UK Deer".

Surely?

K

and if that were to be their response, how does this medal scheme promote the welfare of, and interest in, UK Deer?

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Well we know it's clearly nothing to do with deer but rather an opportunity to make some wedge knowing that there are a lot of stalkers who are badge collectors.

 

[willie_gunn]

This is an award, not a medal, so nothing you can physically pin on your stalking hat or jacket so far as I am aware

My take on this is that BDS are looking to use this new scheme to cover off Continuing Professional Development (CPD) from a deer management perspective. CPD, for those who may not have come across it before, is "a combination of approaches, ideas and techniques that will help you manage your own learning and growth."

DSC1, DSC2 and the Deer Management Course are good in as far as they go, but they are perhaps symptomatic of the type of qualifications needed in order to "tick the box", i.e. you do them and move on to the next one, or do them to achieve a specific goal (FC lease, etc). They didn't start out this way, but that's seemingly what they have become, at least in the case of DSC1 and DSC2.

CPD is looking more at the range of skills and capabilities an individual may achieve over the course of their working life, allowing them to define and achieve objectives throughout their career - whether that's as a recreational stalker, a land manager, a gamekeeper, a professional deer manager or whatever. Some of the skills and awards are permanent (e.g. DSC1 and DSC2) whereas others are temporary and need to be renewed (e.g. First Aid at Work). CPD encourages the individual to think ahead in terms of what skills they might need in order to meet or develop their expertise over both the short and long term.

Doubtless some will see the above as management-speak bo11ocks, and I'm not saying that BDS has necessarily got it right in defining different levels of the "award", but providing individuals (and potentially employees) with the opportunity to more formally recognise a broader range of complementary skills and competences is generally seen as a good thing.

What I can't quite figure out, however, is where the demand has come from for this new initiative....stalkers, employees, public bodies???

P.S. I still love the idea that this is all a money-making scheme. Just take a look at the BDS Annual Reviews if you think that's the case. Their training income in 2013 was £158,331 and their training expenditure was £157,581, so training made a whopping profit of £750. In 2012 their training programme made a loss of just over £30,000 . So this is not exactly a huge money-spinner.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Yes WG but it is still set up for 'Badge Collectors' and CPD by professionals needs no self gratification through the needless amalgamation of a wide spectrum of courses with the strict promotion of the BDS portfolio. I will remind everyone that the BDS has yet again failed to address risk assessment, human resource management and professional requirements as part of this process. What the hell is in it for the wider deer sector?

You touched on a very important point, once the award is achieved then in principal your certificates can expire and your actual points value may drop significantly below your award level achieved.... Does that mean you have a false and misleading award in hand? It certainly wouldn't be 'current'

ps..
CPD to be widely accepted to the benefit of the deer sector must not be capitalised on as a money making opportunity.

 

[6pointer]

Dom you are correct about there training money but surely the ones running the BDS are clever enough to make sure they do not make money from it as a not for profit charity. So what you are saying is the trainers and there helpers pocketed from trainees £157,581. Cynical I know lol.
I have looked through BDS info and can see no were that they state they are an awarding body for the deer sector. Still no word from there partners in crime BASC LOL.

 

[willie_gunn]

Dom you are correct about there training money but surely the ones running the BDS are clever enough to make sure they do not make money from it as a not for profit charity. So what you are saying is the trainers and there helpers pocketed from trainees £157,581. Cynical I know lol.
I have looked through BDS info and can see no were that they state they are an awarding body for the deer sector. Still no word from there partners in crime BASC LOL.

Davie - Mr Micawbers first rule of economics still holds true here:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

Like any business - yours included - there are costs that you have to deduct before you can say how much is "pocketed". Venues, material, travel, catering....from the 26 courses that BDS ran in 2013 you can take away a fair chunk of that income, and that's before you start thinking about the salaries of the trainers and their helpers.

I know that stalkers are a cynical bunch, and we love to think of these people creating training for its own sake and making a mint from it, but you don't need to be an economist to figure out that there's not much money being made here.

 

[willie_gunn]

Yes WG but it is still set up for 'Badge Collectors' and CPD by professionals needs no self gratification through the needless amalgamation of a wide spectrum of courses with the strict promotion of the BDS portfolio. I will remind everyone that the BDS has yet again failed to address risk assessment, human resource management and professional requirements as part of this process. What the hell is in it for the wider deer sector?

You touched on a very important point, once the award is achieved then in principal your certificates can expire and your actual points value may drop significantly below your award level achieved.... Does that mean you have a false and misleading award in hand? It certainly wouldn't be 'current'

ps..
CPD to be widely accepted to the benefit of the deer sector must not be capitalised on as a money making opportunity.

Paul

I'm not here to defend BDS, just give my take on it. I think they are a bit "closeted" in terms of their thinking and approach to the market. What I don't see, however, is anyone else in the sector trying to be innovative.

 

[Apache]

CPD to be widely accepted to the benefit of the deer sector must not be capitalised on as a money making opportunity.

Do you still run DSC1 courses?

The beauty of CPD is that you have a choice of providers. You can even count talking on here or taking a novice out as CPD. It is quite all encompassing. If an element of that is a market driven desire for more courses and training then I have no problem with that.

Vets have to do a minimum of 35 hours per year CPD and some of the best quality CPD I've had, has been expensive. I'm quite happy paying if its good. Running things on the cheap to make them all encompassing potentially lowers the standards and value of the training.

A bit of waffle, but I think deer CPD needs to cover all ends of the spectrum - and some of that will be paid for high quality courses IMO.

(DSC1 & 2, I will do the advanced course one day).

 

[Klenchblaize]

This is an award, not a medal, so nothing you can physically pin on your stalking hat or jacket so far as I am aware

My take on this is that BDS are looking to use this new scheme to cover off Continuing Professional Development (CPD) from a deer management perspective. CPD, for those who may not have come across it before, is "a combination of approaches, ideas and techniques that will help you manage your own learning and growth."

DSC1, DSC2 and the Deer Management Course are good in as far as they go, but they are perhaps symptomatic of the type of qualifications needed in order to "tick the box", i.e. you do them and move on to the next one, or do them to achieve a specific goal (FC lease, etc). They didn't start out this way, but that's seemingly what they have become, at least in the case of DSC1 and DSC2.

CPD is looking more at the range of skills and capabilities an individual may achieve over the course of their working life, allowing them to define and achieve objectives throughout their career - whether that's as a recreational stalker, a land manager, a gamekeeper, a professional deer manager or whatever. Some of the skills and awards are permanent (e.g. DSC1 and DSC2) whereas others are temporary and need to be renewed (e.g. First Aid at Work). CPD encourages the individual to think ahead in terms of what skills they might need in order to meet or develop their expertise over both the short and long term.

Doubtless some will see the above as management-speak bo11ocks, and I'm not saying that BDS has necessarily got it right in defining different levels of the "award", but providing individuals (and potentially employees) with the opportunity to more formally recognise a broader range of complementary skills and competences is generally seen as a good thing.

What I can't quite figure out, however, is where the demand has come from for this new initiative....stalkers, employees, public bodies???

P.S. I still love the idea that this is all a money-making scheme. Just take a look at the BDS Annual Reviews if you think that's the case. Their training income in 2013 was £158,331 and their training expenditure was £157,581, so training made a whopping profit of £750. In 2012 their training programme made a loss of just over £30,000 . So this is not exactly a huge money-spinner.

Little to fault in this considered post which also acknowledges the scheme is in need of a little tweaking on several levels but perhaps none more so than in how such is presented if to sit more comfortably with a certain scepticism as engendered by the over-deployed use of the mantra alluded to in my post above and closely allied to the word “impartiality”.

Even as a BDS member of c25 years I fully grasp why so many question the motivation of the BDS when I have communiqués from Central Office stating categorically that they will not publish articles in the Journal that promote deerstalking due to their charitable status and seemingly totally oblivious to the reality that the vast majority of their revenue comes not from professional deer managers but rather recreational stalkers.

I nonetheless wish them every luck with the scheme and, as others have already mentioned, look forward to studying the syllabus for the inevitable platinum grade.

Oh, and does anyone know if there are points to be had for a NEBOSH (NGC) certificate?


K

 

[Paul at Fechan]

lots of people/organisations have but DMQ/BASC/BDS have shot them down because 'it wouldn't benefit the deer sector'. A fair while ago I posted a proposal for a new qualification to get the opinions of the stalking community on here which was very highly supported. That proposal is now an approved Lantra award but for wider reasons isn't available to the stalking community just yet. Take 6pointers urban manual, practitioner driven with little support in the early stages but once complete a very important recognised step forward which is the value that makes a difference. Not money driven, become a member to get a special badge.

There are organisations and people who think about the needs of the deer sector and address them on behalf of their members and wider community. This BDS offeringis not one of those better efforts without any question.

 

[willie_gunn]

Even as a BDS member of c25 years I fully grasp why so many question the motivation of the BDS when I have communiqués from Central Office stating categorically that they will not publish articles in the Journal that promote deerstalking due to their charitable status and seemingly totally oblivious to the reality that the vast majority of their revenue comes not from professional deer managers but rather recreational stalkers.

Yes, I'd seen that.

I also wonder how they balance their charitable status against the fact that a prerequisite for the Bronze is DSC1 and a prerequisite for Silver is DSC2. The clue is in the name - it's a "Deer Stalking Certificate", so no-one other than a deer stalker can ever achieve those levels

 

[willie_gunn]

Paul

I can only base my opinions on BDS' independently-audited financial report, but on the face of it they would be better off getting out of training altogether since it clearly contributes little if anything to their yearly profits. Maybe someone out there is making money from offering deer-related training, but apparently it's not BDS.

From that perspective I can see the attraction of the new award to BDS, since unlike delivering DSC1/DSC2/Deer Manager's Course it should require relatively little in the way of expenditure to administer and deliver.

 

[Cris]

Paul

I can only base my opinions on BDS' independently-audited financial report, but on the face of it they would be better off getting out of training altogether since it clearly contributes little if anything to their yearly profits. Maybe someone out there is making money from offering deer-related training, but apparently it's not BDS.

From that perspective I can see the attraction of the new award to BDS, since unlike delivering DSC1/DSC2/Deer Manager's Course it should require relatively little in the way of expenditure to administer and deliver.

True but what does it actually give the punters. Nothing he has not got buy way of the courses attended and certificates already awarded. There are similarities to commercial accredited training in other industries but is it actually needed or wanted. Just over complicatates a simple system that worked.... just about given the DMQ failings.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

WG. fair point but this apparent 'no profit' system of training that they are driving in order to fly this new scheme says to me that the only money being made is by the training team, hosts and awarding bodies??? ok

Guys, CPD hello? Continued Professional Development is not where a person does courses or stuff for the sake of it to earn prizes. Its purpose is reinforcing and supporting key knowledge and understanding applicable to your role or responsibility. Being a member for 10 points??? yeh come on.

 

[willie_gunn]

True but what does it actually give the punters. Nothing he has not got buy way of the courses attended and certificates already awarded. There are similarities to commercial accredited training in other industries but is it actually needed or wanted. Just over complicatates a simple system that worked.... just about given the DMQ failings.

Much the same point I made in post #63:

What I can't quite figure out, however, is where the demand has come from for this new initiative....stalkers, employees, public bodies???

 

[willie_gunn]

fair point but this apparent 'no profit' system of training that they are driving in order to fly this new scheme says to me that the only money being made is by the training team, hosts and awarding bodies??? ok

Guys, CPD hello? Continued Professional Development is not where a person does courses or stuff for the sake of it to earn prizes. Its purpose is reinforcing and supporting key knowledge and understanding applicable to your role or responsibility. Being a member for 10 points??? yeh come on.

Paul

I am just offering my interpretation of why they've done this, not the actual reason, so please don't shoot the messenger.

I personally like the idea that it attempts to get away from DSC1 and DSC2 being the be-all and end-all of deer qualifications and learning, as I am a firm believer in the principal that a range of skills and competences should be measurable and equitable. I've read many times how it should be possible that someone's years of experience or certain achievement should in some way be balanced against the lack of a paper "ticket". This skills-based approach holds the core of being turned into that.

As I said before, though, in that context I don't understand why they've gone for different levels of award, nor why they have made some courses pre-requisites to attaining a given level.

This may be an opportunity missed, but as none of us on here know the detailed workings behind this new award we are all simply speculating.

 

[Cris]

All well and good as there were professional qualifications pre DMQ and still are post DMQ. Who decided what is relevant or not. It looks a bit of a lottery to me. Put your qualifications in and see if they are accepted or not buy people who may have little knowledge of what those qualifications attest for...I quite frankly think BDS have not thought this though and taken on more than they will be able to deal with.

 

[willie_gunn]

All well and good as there were professional qualifications pre DMQ and still are post DMQ. Who decided what is relevant or not. It looks a bit of a lottery to me. Put your qualifications in and see if they are accepted or not buy people who may have little knowledge of what those qualifications attest for...I quite frankly think BDS have not thought this though and taken on more than they will be able to deal with.

Not to be pedantic, but when it comes to the DSC1 and DSC2 qualifications that is exactly the purpose of DMQ - "to develop and maintain a progressive approach to deer management standards and assessment, linked to the recognised current National Occupational Standards (NOS)".

What BDS is doing is setting up a process outside of DMQ to recognise a broader portfolio of courses and skills, not all of which are necessarily deer-related. That may be all well and good, but the conflict comes from the fact that not only are BDS a training provider, but also they decide how many "points" are awarded for each of the courses and skills.....including those delivered by both themselves and their competitors.

Whether they are best placed to do this - and indeed whether that should be the role of a charity - are moot points.

 

[Cris]

Not to be pedantic, but when it comes to the DSC1 and DSC2 qualifications that is exactly the purpose of DMQ - "to develop and maintain a progressive approach to deer management standards and assessment, linked to the recognised current National Occupational Standards (NOS)".

What BDS is doing is setting up a process outside of DMQ to recognise a broader portfolio of courses and skills, not all of which are necessarily deer-related. That may be all well and good, but the conflict comes from the fact that not only are BDS a training provider, but also they decide how many "points" are awarded for each of the courses and skills.....including those delivered by both themselves and their competitors.

Whether they are best placed to do this - and indeed whether that should be the role of a charity - are moot points.

This is exactly My point and I don't think they are well enough equipped to do so. How can any organisation hold court over your qualifications and decide what points to designate to them. There are so many courses that can be associated with deer or wildlife management over as many years as you care to mention. At least DMQ and I thought I would never defend it, has a purpose with a clear learning structure based on theory and practice.

I have been calling for more acceptance of other qualifications for a number of years to co exist with the DMQ mafia but his is a little off the mark still.