BDS dsc 1 Course

[wadashot]

As an accredited witness I am more than willing to attend stalks for DMQ level 2 portfolios but why on earth would you expect that to be a free service, when was the last time you heard of a free driving test?
I realise that some people may be charging more than others but at the end of the day, vote with your feet, look around and find someone who is able to help you at an affordable cost.

Nobody is suggesting doing it for nothing as i know people realise there are expenses to charge, but you cannot charge for actually witnessing. I was always under the impression that AW`s were only allowed to charge travel costs, b+b costs etc, and this was one of the reasons that changed it from 3 AW`s to 1 and the other 2 being made up of credible witnesses as too many AW`s were taking the mickey and charging the earth unecessarily.

wadas

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Nice thought Wadas,

I would ask though, is it reasonable to expect someone to give up say 5 hours of their time to witness and write up a stalk say within a 50 mile radius for the grand sum of £20.00 (40p per mile).

Minimum wage after all is £5.73.

I am not condoning the actions of some operators who like you have mentioned are charging over the odds, but surely there must be a place for costs' to reflect people's time as well as travel.

All the best

Ben

 

[Davie]

Test s are test and the courses run are meant to give all the information necessary to pass the test dmq 1 . You can do what some do and save money by turning up on test day only. But a test is a test you can fail and extra preparation is certainly advisable be fore you go.
There is a thread on a different site were AW ,S took a chap out and only charged him 50 for fuel he is now gripeing that he didnt see any deer , It was his own ground and they went out 4 times.What do some people want.
ps 50 was the total cost for both for the 4 stalk,s will they witness again i doubt it.

 

[Davie]

sorry double post

 

[wadashot]

Nice thought Wadas,

I would ask though, is it reasonable to expect someone to give up say 5 hours of their time to witness and write up a stalk say within a 50 mile radius for the grand sum of £20.00 (40p per mile).

Minimum wage after all is £5.73.

I am not condoning the actions of some operators who like you have mentioned are charging over the odds, but surely there must be a place for costs' to reflect people's time as well as travel.

All the best

Ben

Sorry to quote you again Ben. So are you telling me that AW`s become AW`s to make a profit on witnessing peoples stalks then?. Because like i say, AW`s are not allowed to charge anything other than expenses .
When i did my level 2 a number of years back now, i was in a syndicate in Ayreshire, i looked on the list of AW`s and found one that was as close to my ground as possible. When i asked the guy how much it was gonna cost me, he said that as he could virtually see my ground from his house so i would just need to pick him up as he wasn`t allowed to charge anything other than expenses.
Now, as a credible witness myself i have witnessed peoples stalks and have, like others on this site made an offer to people for the cost of travel to witness their stalks.
Yes it is time consuming to fill in the portfolio, but i could never charge an extra chrge for this.

wadas

 

[AI perfector]

DSC1 Watton, Norfolk

Just to relay my own experience of the DCS1 course, which I completed a couple of weeks ago, it was one of the most information packed courses that I've been on and I've got my fair share of grey hair; certainly it was value for money, enjoyable, occasionally humourous and it was with a good group of people with whom to enjoy the banter.
The tutors were evidently extremely experienced, yet delivered the course material in a way that developed the confidence of the 'students', whether they already had a few trophies over their fire places or were sighting in their new rifles on the course never having taken an animal.
The balance and structure of course topics was perfect in that, for example, there was no overdose on deer recognition on one day (which would have served only to confuse {me }), that having been interspersed with other subjects over the duration of the course.
As a complete novice to stalking, I was very pleased that I undertook the course before venturing out, whether accompanied or otherwise. I don't need to tell you that to take the life of such noble animals is not to be taken lightly and neither, for that matter, is the course. It is not a breeze and, certainly to those with little or no field experience, requires that somewhat more than lip service be paid to the swotting.
We were advised that in any time available during the course to learn the Safety section backwards, which requires 100% correct answers. So, if you are going to do the course, my suggestion would be that you have done this before you arrive; you would then be able to focus on and retain the deer specific knowledge imparted by the tutors.
The final tip would be have a pencil and paper ready at ALL times as there are snippets of useful info' flowing from your fellow students all the time.
I hope this insight was useful. Good hunting. Cheers, Paul

 

[@theroedeerguy]

All I was saying Wadas that it certainly appears to be some of the forum members opinion that people do become an AW to make a fast buck!(no pun intended!)

Now while I cannot speak for others, that is certainly not why I have become an AW. My reasoning was to hopefully be able to give a little back to a way of life that I love.

And maybe help some people in the way I have been helped by others.

The point I was trying to make was that there has to be a balance surely between keeping cost's accessable but also recognising the efforts of the witness.

Cheers

Ben

 

[roedeerred]

level 1 teachers

If you are member of BDS an not satisfied with teaching methods yea name and shame but take it to your area commitee as well the sociaty head office.the sociaty must treat all memders fairly and not brush things like this under the carpet.also remember deer management training Ltd is an organisation set up to ensure standards are met both in training and practice.

 

[Bandit Country]

While on the subject of AW's and fees/expenses/cost can anyone name any other vocational qualification where 'witnesses' get paid for their trouble? This appears to be a situation peculiar to the DSC2.

In any other award, if a candidate turned in a portfolio stating they had paid a witness to provide a testimony of competence, if you were an assessor how would you view that?

 

[@theroedeerguy]

If you need an example of a situation where a witness/examiner recieves payment for evaluating a student's skills here is an example. Since we are talking about a land based qualification we had better stick in that vein.

If you have ever done a PA1 or PA2 for spraying operations in Agriculture you will go to an assessment centre, recieve training and then an external verifier comes to the centre and examines your competency.

I can assure you that in that circumstance the external verifier recieves a little more payment than 40p per mile travelling expenses.

If we also consider the situation where farms will arrange for a vocational course to be done at the workplace, e.g. forklift courses the examiner in that situation also recieves payment.

I hope this is of some help.

All the best

Ben

 

[Davie]

BC Just about every test need an external verifier mate or EXAMINER , If not every person that ever learned to drive and that's about all of us .We would have passed first time.
Theory and an ability to pass that theory on to others is what is need by a trainer. Sadly the last bit is lacking in a lot of us, Total single mindedness and the ability to stick to a set criteria is what is required if you are to Examine some ones ability at some thing .

 

[Himagain]

This interesting discussion started with 2 student's complaints being reported second hand by someone else. Misunderstanding and misreporting or inaccurate hearsay often leads to unfair or unwarranted criticism in many areas of the deer stalking field not just in training and qualification.

However it should not be necessary to rely on inaccurate information in any discussion in a public forum like this. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion and views or conclusions may vary widely but matters of fact should be accurately reported. Many course managers /instructors are probably already forum members if not they are all contactable through BDS and would set the record straight on matters of principle or fact if asked.

On BDS-run courses, the correct Complaints Procedure is explained to all students during the Introductory Lecture together with the Safety Policy/ the Non-Discrimination Policy etc and a course comments sheet is also issued (and studied in detail by the trainers after each course). Of course an unhappy student cannot be forced to use these avenues of complaint but slagging off the instructors on a public forum is hardly constructive criticism even if something has gone wrong!

The financial costs of DSC 1 can also be explained whether for the BDS training element or for the DMQ Assessment element as can the costs of the DSC2 system.

If the UK stalking qualification system is to be a success, it needs to meet the requirements of all "stakeholders" (apologies for that dreadful buzz-word) obviously these include the Government, landowners, official agencies like FSA /FC / Police / HSE etc as well as the deerstalking fraternity itself. It also needs to be credible and fairly and honestly administered - if this is apparent, it should be widely accepted.

The training required to achieve the standard of technical knowledge at Level 1 can be achieved in many ways. BDS believes a 4 day lecture course (1 day of which is mostly taken up with assessment) should be adequate in most cases IF supported by careful home study of a very comprehensive manual but candidates are accepted for assessment who have trained in other ways. BDS philosphy is to teach people quite a bit about deer and basic deer stalking rather than just coach them to pass the test questions as is the case on some shorter courses.

Achieving the basic shooting standard laid down depends on the individual's own skill - it worries me greatly that it can also sometimes be acquired in a day by a complete novice!

This rather long post has probably identified a few more hot topics for discussion!!

 

[Bandit Country]

If the UK stalking qualification system is to be a success, it needs to meet the requirements of all "stakeholders" (apologies for that dreadful buzz-word) obviously these include the Government, landowners, official agencies like FSA /FC / Police / HSE etc as well as the deerstalking fraternity itself. It also needs to be credible and fairly and honestly administered - if this is apparent, it should be widely accepted.

That really is the rub, isn't it. Successful for whom? There is a basket load of differing agendas in that paragraph...

Clearly much of the debate on this site hinges around "fairly & honestly adminstered" and I don't think the current structure lends itself to that being obvious. What is obvious is that people have differing levels of understanding and there are obvious variations in perception and expectation. In responses to my question about paying witnesses, for example, Ben & 6.5 described activity by "examiners" and "external verifiers" both of which have different roles (if we take examiner as being an asessor) in assessing vocational competence. If we don't have common usage and understanding of terminology how can we ever agree on what constitures fair and honest?

 

[Himagain]

DSC

By definition, a "successful" training and qualification system should be welcomed and supported by all those parties mentioned above because it satisfied their own requirements /agendas and they accept the need for it to meet other people's. Most (even stalkers themselves) agree that all deer stalkers should be able to prove a meaningful standard of knowledge and competence to operate unsupervised - opinions differ (often widely) as to the scope of technical knowledge and degree of skill required to become so qualified.

However everyone must agree that the agreed standard should be fairly tested and the qualification only be awarded if earned - or do they? So often one hears people say that have stalked for years and so should not have to take a test - the truth in nearly all such cases is they have stalked very badly for years and could not pass the test!

Your point about people needing to understand the rules/jargon better is very true and a lot of the flak and complaints about DSC comes from those who don't know the detail.

They do not understand that all assessors and verifiers have to be nationally qualified and great efforts are made by most assessment centres and DMQ to check that they are all applying the rules honestly.

However at Level 2 they seldom actually see the candidates operating and have to rely on reports by Accredited Witnesses who may themselves only just be up to the required standard and have only been briefed on the system rules and how to test fairly.

In an effort to keep assessment costs down, people try to use their "mates" as AWs or get friends to be accepted as Credible Witnesses (why are they not themselves already qualified one has to ask?) It is very difficult to test a "mate" fairly.

The gripes over charging for AW work means too many experienced and qualified stalkers don't bother to become qualified AWs/Assessors and so standards of honesty and competence among these key people in the assessment system may not be as high as they should be.

 

[docholiday]

him again

I can assure you during my bds dsc1 course, no one mentioned a complaints proceedure, a form was going around at the end of the course asking for feedback etc, but suprise suprise this was distributed as students were leaving to go home after 4 days of an expensive and very average course where several people had walked out during the course due to disatisfaction.

 

[Pete E]

cervidae/CERVUS

Gents, one thing you both need to consider is that sometimes, no matter how good the training is, some people are just going to cock things up..

I have seen this time and time again in that you can "hold somebodies hand" through a certain procedure, explain exactly what they need to do and why, get them to demonstrate they have the required skill in slow time, but when they get into a "live" situation, for some reason things go to pot, and they forgot/ignore what they been taught and do something totally different..

On one course I was helping run (not deer related I might add) , a fellow instructor advised that I needed to "treat Student X like a computer, and punch the information in!"

And he was right too, as the guy was a complete disaster with anything practical.

Regards,

Pete

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Hi all I havnt posted for some time due to personal reasons yet wanted to give my opinion as Chris you tutored me for my dsc1 at fordingbridge and tony has been mentoring me for some time..
Chris.. There were countless people on the course i attended that found your teaching manner offensive, many laughed as their way to handle the abruptness of your tongue and one lad an ex-forces lad like myself sat next to me found you rude to the point i had to almost restrain him...
All that said and to give my own opinion the same one that was given on my course critique.. Yes you are a straight talking rude abrupt tutor yet i found the course content absolutely amazing your knowledge and passion for deer was inspirational and i would advise anybody to do the course through my own experience...

Tony has been a good mentor and friend to me.. His knowledge and passion for deer has seen many people that post on here stalk with him again and again... Tonys knowledge has been equally inspirational and i personally have gained more experience through my association with you both than i could have done individually..
my name is terry walker...

 

[cervus]

Cervidae, with respect, my students passed the course..the defectors were from elsewhere,this is not a jousting match,the purpose of the initial post was to identify if a problem existed and if other students felt aggrieved with the BDS DSC 1 input anywhere,.....as a previous Instructor, in several disciplines,free fall parachuting, powerboating, to name two hands on subjects the instructors were subject to assessment on an annual basis, and a critique passed to them in writing for areas of improvement and development, this does not happen in deerstalking with BDS or BASC, and to my mind that is a lot of the problem, the input is personality led and that can lead to problems which remain un-challenged and un- resolved. If you are providing a product which people are paying good hard earned money for , all that is needed is a little humility and introspection by any instructor and that instructor should know their limitations ,and seek personal development opportunities to enhance their role.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Cervus.. on my bdsc1 held at fordingbridge a critique was handed out at the end of the course by chris howard giving all students the opportunity to express themselves.. I would imagine chris skin neares the thickness of a munty but hey i imagine theres enough people thats said the same thing so you might ask why the bds hasnt done anything or is that where the click comes in...

 

[cervus]

BDS DSC1 Course

Terry you have it one, mate! Perhaps a repost and a challenge are the first stirrings of introspection??!