BDS dsc 1 Course

New Avon Arms
Re: him again

docholiday said:
I can assure you during my bds dsc1 course, no one mentioned a complaints proceedure, a form was going around at the end of the course asking for feedback etc, but suprise suprise this was distributed as students were leaving to go home after 4 days of an expensive and very average course where several people had walked out during the course due to disatisfaction.
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First if you pm me or cervus or BDS with the date/ place of course, someone will investigate why the intro (first) lecture was not properly delivered on that course - unless you arrived late and missed it!

Second when best to issue the comments sheets is a debatable point. Some instructors issue early so they can be completed as course develops but (rightly) the students are more interested in learning than judging the quality of each lecture and there is an increased risk of students losing them /leaving them at home/forget to hand them in. Other managers issue them at the end of the course and then there is a risk of students wanting away and no time to fill them in properly /have forgotten useful points etc

Thirdly cost - you thought it expensive. This is a whole topic on its own. About a third of the cost of the course is the DMQ registration and assessment costs to pay for supervision of the system, test production and delivery and record keeping. The rest is the training element.

It would be interesting to know how much per day you would consider a fair charge to pay for the 3 days training - paying lecturers/hire of location and range/ manual/ advertising/ even refreshments. The cost seems to compare with other similar vocational training e.g. first aid and short courses at colleges etc and in my experience having taught at both the BDS learning experience is usually better! I sorry you had a bad experience, if you submit constructive criticism, I know BDS will correct any shortcomings.
 
Further to Chris Howards posts, it was he who made my DSC1 last year so informative and enjoyable. Thanks again Chris, we all had a good time because of your proffesionalism and vast experience. Keep up the good work.
 
DSC1

With the greatest respect to all, I would like to add my personal comments.
I very recently attended a course at Wadhurst in October run by Chris Howard. At the start of the first day Chris made it very clear that he would answer all and any questions at the end of each lecture. The reason for this became very apparant, there was so much information to pack into the course to cover all the relevant subjects. This he did like a true professional and I never once heard any of the other pupils speak ill of him.
Anyone who fails part of the course has only themselves to blame. You must do your home work. There are no hidden suprises and all the answers are in the manual which are provided well before the course. What Chris does is to reinstate everything in that manual by means of slides, practical demonstrations and his vast knowledge.
My next comment is my own personal opinion of Chris. Yes, to some he may appear to have come over a little dry, but he was not there to make light heart or be the joker. I found him to be very approachable and an expert in his field. He was there to do his job and he certainly delivered. I don't think Chris is the sort of person to take to fools to kindly but I truley believe he wants everyone to pass the courses he runs.
Continue the good work Chris
 
This is unfolding nicely. I am glad that the course tutors have come forward to deliver their side of the story. It is extremely difficult to keep everybody happy on these courses, but what is more evident, is the amount of people that are unhappy with progression.

Interesting indeed that someone decided to walk from the course that failed on safety!!! How long have they been stalking, and how long did they think they were doing things correctly.

It is the nature of the beast that we are having to show our abilities to ensure that we are doing things correctly. Yes it is a pain, but from some of the people that I have seen I believe we need it. I think the people that keep complaining are the ones that are scared of the courses as they may show that they have less knowledge than they thought they had. But that is what courses are for.

On the topic of AW's, I think you will find that some will charge for doing the witnessing and the portfolio. For some, this is a necessity as they as self employed stalkers. So if you are going to invite him to your ground, expect to pay his daily rate. Also, if you go to his ground, I am sure you will pay for the outing and not the portfolio side.

For others like myself, I am employed and will only charge for my fuel and if it was needed then b&b, the AW can not be expected to pay for this. The reason that I got into this was to help other stalkers to try and achieve a standard that has been pushed upon us by the likes of FE.

I also dont blame some for charging for filling out the portfolio as it can take some time to complete. But if that is going on, then it needs to be standardised by the authority that drives the courses. A levy of £10 or £15 could be charged. I have heard of some that were as high as £60....and that is rediculous.

I have also been on one of Chris' courses. He and his colleagues were well informed, open for discussion and were very enthusiastic. Keep up the good work.

J
 
BDS DSC1 Course

It is gratifying to have positive feedback from students, and I am sure that those students were well served by the instructor, so the obvious next step is to clarify where and why this negative trend has arisen ,as I said at the outset where fees are charged by any service provider,accountability is paramount, from my private e-mails it is clear that there are a number of courses that have had problems, not just BDS, .... yes pre-course prep is vital, and the delivery of the course material a process of repetition against a tight schedule...maybe the delivery should be aimed with the least able student in mind, that was what I was taught in Methods of Instruction as a former Home Office Instructor,and is that too much to ask, I do not think so.A person may be a brilliant deer manager it does not guarantee that the brilliance extends to the classroom in all cases,therefore the concept of support for the instructor is vital, by annual assessment,as I said in my initial post, I was sorry to hear that problems had arisen as the DSC1 is the necessary first step for novices who wish to partake in the DSC Module, let,s just keep the burden light and the info. flowing, and keep all students on board.
 
BDS DSC1 Course

300wsm,the question deserves an answer..no hidden agenda, just concerns about what was stated,you must read the posts from students with grievances and consider if they are justified, I know that they are concerned about being "blacklisted" by the powers that be if they complain openly. 2ND point as I do not or wish to operate a training centre/school or whatever,who am I competing against ?I do however give novices the opportunity to learn the basics prior to shooting their first deer, and always recommend the DSC1 as the logical next step to get more theory.As far as my view on the instructors is concerned that is not for this forum and when I meet them I will discuss the matter face to face, if they tell me to "f... off",that will confirm a few things to me, and others. What these people do not realise is that outside of the deer world they are just like everybody else.If I have any concerns, they have been aired ,hopefully Bds and Basc will consider a training review which is seeking more accountability to students on the DSC1 Course, and as stated support and development for trainers to avoid plagarism and elitism,nothing is gained by personal slagging off, but it happens even between the trainers. ......
 
I think we also need to recognise we operate in the real world, not some hypothetical study case. Some people can't do exams/tests very well and others don't take directions/instructions because they can't be bothered or think they know better. Everybody who does training meets these people and, personally, I feel there are more and more of them out there. It doesn't mean that this is the case here, but there are always two sides when people fall out over anything, each feeling that they have the moral high ground and quite happily bring that view forward to those around them, hoping to see support and understanding for their actions. We still haven't heard from the stundents themselves or the instructor (I understand above different situations were discussed) This means that everything we read here is filtered and should be seen as such.
As long as we don't have the first hand information we shouldn't pass judgement as we don't have the full picture (and maby even then we are not qualified or suitable to pass it). Cheers, Rene.

PS Why those students don't feel they can post here I don't understand, as there are quite a few very happy here to critisice each other whilst hiding behind all kinds of forum names.
 
Re: BDS DSC1 Course

cervus said:
...maybe the delivery should be aimed with the least able student in mind, that was what I was taught in Methods of Instruction as a former Home Office Instructor,and is that too much to ask, I do not think so.
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It is common teaching to practice to differentiate. That is teach not only to the bottom, but also to the top. Whilst it is unfair to deprive the slowest student of learning by making things too hard for him, it is also equally unfair to deprive the most able student of learning by making things to easy. That is why teachers, lecturers, tutors etc should plan their sessions to include activities and learning that will engage EVERYBODY not just the least able student.

Gez
 
Instructor training and pace of course

cervus wrote:
...maybe the delivery should be aimed with the least able student in mind, that was what I was taught in Methods of Instruction as a former Home Office Instructor,and is that too much to ask, I do not think so.
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Many of the BDS Level 1 course managers are also professionally trained, instructors are often ex-service so are used to teaching shooting and practical field skills as well as technical subjects. As such they know to constantly make eye contact with their students to ensure their teaching is being understood and ask questions /run quiz sessions etc to confirm learning is being absorbed. There may be a trainee instructor involved but they will be supervised/backed-up by a senior instructor most of whom attended a recent BDS updating course laid on to ensure that modern instructional techniques were being incorporated into course teaching.

Rene makes a good point that it is a long time since many of the DSC students went through such an intensive learning process - for them, absorbing large quantities of information in a relatively short time is an exhausting process which is why everyone is encouraged to do a lot of pre-course study of the manual. NVQ also requires that anyone with learning difficulties is given special attention and properly catered for.

Experience shows that "problems" usually involve a student who has already done a bit of stalking and thinks he knows it all. Complete novices who have done their homework, listen and then do what they are taught usually sail through the tests with high marks even the shooting. Whereas the student who brags about never missing foxes at 400m with his "flat shooting" rifle usually struggles or even fails - and then goes off in a huff and complains! It sounds as if there might be an element of that in the case described.

Finally most instuctors try to make the learning processas interesting and enjoyable as possible. Large numbers of teaching aids are used and instuctors often have their own style and techniques to encourage the students to participate and contribute. Many of the students comment on their forms that the informal and wide-ranging discussions during lunch and coffee breaks are almost as valuable to the learning process as the formal teaching.
 
bds

Having spent 8 years in the military here lies the problem with bullish instructors with i am right and nobody else has a view attitude .This is a poor teaching method .Intimidation on ranges does nothing but create nerves in the guys on a range which creates poor safety and poor results !do the bds and other instructors get taught how to teach?
 
Re: bds

tom said:
Having spent 8 years in the military here lies the problem with bullish instructors with i am right and nobody else has a view attitude .This is a poor teaching method .Intimidation on ranges does nothing but create nerves in the guys on a range which creates poor safety and poor results !do the bds and other instructors get taught how to teach?
Click to expand...

I'll jump in again here and agree with that. Part of my job is to train trainers, much of it is in manufacturing and I come across ex-forces people fairly regularly. They have been trained to train a delegate type which is very different to non-service trainees.

The major difference is that outside the forces you have to pursuade an audience of your legitimacy, whereas in the forces the trainee has little choice but to accept it. Clear communication is one thing, but softer people skills are another. It's OK saying 'It's not a popularity contest', but in fact it is - the more your delegates identify with you, including your respect for them as an indivdual person, then the more they will want to take on what you say - with paying customers you have an obligation to resect a learning style that works for them, not for you.

Ex-forces instructors often have a much better natural structure to what they do, but they often need to work on their soft skills otherwise they can alienate the trainees. Ex RAF tend to have the softest styles, followed by ex- Navy, then ex-Army.
 
DSC 1

Thanks Guy's
You realy are putting me off taking my DSC1, as i'm dyslexic i find it hard to studyand the more i read your comments the worse it gets.
I havebeen onto BASC to see if they can give me any help with this but as yet have not had a reply so come on give me some hope, as i could be
one who walks out of the course when i take it
JayJay
 
jay jay
dont be put off mate,when i did my dsc1 which was through basc at rodbaston collage the first thing our instructor said to us has anyone got anything they need to tell me before we get started,and he then said straight away he is dyslexic.he explained everything and was great.it was over 5 days and i really enjoyed every day.so go for it mate and dont be put off.
 
I am afraid no one seems to have highlighted the fact that the BDS is a club the DSC is one of their "events".

There is NO formal expertise qualification process or organisation overseeing standards of training. Therefore all you have to do is join and you can be an expert, a trainer, any level of authourity within this organisation without having any formally recognised skills whatsoever.

If you sent your kids to train with an organisation you would want to know what qualifications they will get, who authenticates them, LANTRA, City & Guilds, NVQ.

Unfortunately the government even turns their ear towards them, the Police are listening to them, how dangerous is that. No overseeing authourity no right of apeal against their opinion.

If you have the BDS you need "Offdeer" as a regulator or you dont have balance.
 
Doghound,

I did a course with the BDS, not too long ago. It was the Deer Managers Course at Fordingbridge, the only thing that marred the course was a guy who was the only one to complain. Nearly all made comment about that student, not the instructors or content of programme.

At the end of the course I was sent a certificate in the post from LANTRA, telling me I had passed both the advanced shooting test and the course. On the first day the course was attended by a member of LANTRA to carry out an appraisal of the course, he came around the students and freely asked questions and left at the end of the day. So yes BDS courses do get validated by the sponsoring Governing body who supply the franchise.

It was not too long ago that we, (yes me included) as members were giving BASC a right old bashing, it now seems to be the turn of the BDS. Maybes the other organisations out there should don hard hats and await incoming?
 
Jay Jay, I can't comment on BASC and am in no way am trying to steer you away from your chosen route but I do vividly recall that on my BDS course at Watton a few weeks ago the tutors specifically and emphatically asked, before we started the course, for open or private disclosure of personal 'challenges' that students may be faced with in undertaking the course. Go for it, Jay Jay, it's an real education and in my case was enjoyable albeit with some deserved tension (I'd read the manual only once - read it more than that before you arrive).

As for gun safety in relation to the course as discussed elsewhere on this forum, to this day (40 years on) I clearly remember the words "All the pheasants ever bred Won’t repay for one man dead" from A Father's Advice, which happens for be on a BASC web page http://www.basc.org.uk/content/a_fathers_advice
Surely we need to have that in the forefront of our minds when determining whether or not a student should be endorsed as an able and safe hunter!! The worry is if someone not up to the requisite safety standards 'walks off' the course and carries on unsafe practices.
 
steyr

I stand corrected if LANTRA are now involved, however thisis a long time coming.

The point I am making is not that what the BDS and BASC do is bad or wrong, but that there is little if any regulation.

I teach in further education and have done the DSC with some of the much criticised BDS team. I have to say I really enjoyed it, got a lot out of it and would recoment it.

This does not stop me seeing that the BDS and BASC are clubs and if they are not acountable to an authourising body no one can stop them if they wander into uncharted water.

For example the BDS encompass firearms law in thier training yest are lobby group trying to change it. This is a conflict of interest and give srise to the possibility of misusing their training status for their lobying objectives.
 
Doghound,

you wrote,

I am afraid no one seems to have highlighted the fact that the BDS is a club the DSC is one of their "events".

There is NO formal expertise qualification process or organisation overseeing standards of training. Therefore all you have to do is join and you can be an expert, a trainer, any level of authourity within this organisation without having any formally recognised skills whatsoever.
Click to expand...

What trash, it is not a club it is a charitable organisation. Can you expand on your comment about the DSC being one of their events!! As I know it, you only go on these so called events if you wish to and you also have to make the grade. I would think that the course content that they teach to is the same as that taught by BASC and any other assessment centre as they are ratified by the DMQ.

There is no formal expertise etc etc. It is the only body that has a Deer Managers Course which is acreddited by LANTRA.

JAYJAY,
dont worry about dyslexia as the courses should provide help for this. I was recently on BDS course where one of the cndidates got some help from the tutor, he never gave answers, just helped on he understanding of the question and answers. The student done well.

J
 
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