BDS level 2.

[woodmaster]

I recently bought some items from the BDS. Within the packaging were some leaflets showing some of the training provided.
I see BDS offer a 2 day level 2 course for £500 or their about. To me this seemed to give a conflict between BDS and their AW's. Not to mention the strange idea that it's good to "get it done" in 2 days. Surely these AW's put alot of effort into being AW's. I know they are not supposed to charge for witnessing, but it does give an edge to their offering of stalking if they witness your paid stalk. Now there in competition with the very organisation they belong too.

I'm fairly new to stalking but have completed both level 1 and 2. Not because I want a piece of paper in order to say "i'm a good stalker" but because I realized there was alot to learn and alot to do poorly if out in the field with little knowledge. I paid for many days out with a number of PH's. Some I preferred to others but all people with considerable knowledge for me to tap into before completing a 4 day level 1 course with Donnington Deer Services. Yes I had 4 days of travel costs, 4 days without earning any money (self employed) and a not insignificant cost. However I learned more than I would have from just reading the book, and left with the confidence I could cull deer in an effective, humane way and keep the carcass edible.

Having level 1 opened up the chance to join a syndicate, which I did and stalked for around a year putting in some 30+ days on the ground. So I had now some experience, whether it be the right way or not I didn't know. What I did know was that at the beginning of my stalking I made many mistakes leading to few deer on the ground, a large dent in my pocket and not a lot for dinner. By the end of the year my success rate had improved dramatically. So something must be ok.
I then see that within the next year or 2 it's likely that many land owners/managers will require stalkers to attain level 2 to continue on the ground.

With this in mind I decided to continue with the process. I always had the view that level 2 was an opportunity for me to show a qualified and experienced person that I had attained a level of skill suitable for me to go out alone and stalk deer. What it wasn't going to do was make me a better stalker just because I shot 3 deer in a couple of days. I took the view that it would be sensible to use a decent amount of the time allowed (3 years) to reach a satisfactory level. I took a year. I shot many deer un-witnessed during this time. I also payed for 3 stalks on an AW's ground where I managed to cull the deer required. As with every stalk I learned something and managed to show an appropriate skill. Now I'm waiting to get the call and hopefully the paperwork will be done. The learning will however never end. To me it's not about "getting it done". It's about being happy you can find deer, stalk deer, decide which to shoot or not, make a good shot and deal with all that comes after the shot. Now I accept this can be done in 2 days in a deer park, but does it give a stalker a chance to learn from mistakes, and put in practice that learning another day? Or does it just tick the boxes and make him OK. Level 2 passed?

I'm sure BDS have promoted the benefit of training very well, and land managers have taken the bait so to speak, becoming the authority on best practice etc they have positioned themselves well to forward the principle of stalkers having a responsibility to shoot deer in a humane and sustainable manner.

With this in mind it appears to me that they (BDS) now have a conflict between promoting the level 2 and it's completion using AW's who are NOT supposed to make money from witnessing a stalk. The SD member who I used certainly didn't and must have spent some time filling in all the boxes on the portfolio. Yes he charged me for the stalk (as expected) but to my mind carries out his duty as an AW purely because he believes in the principle of good ethics and deer management. (let me know if I'm too naive).

I'd be interested what both AW's and potential candidates think to this. My view is that BDS should further good practice through the AW scheme and not some short course aimed at getting potentially very inexperienced guns a piece of paper rather than a well earned grounding in stalking. I would encourage other like me not to get caught up in "getting it done" but to use the time to get experience and learn from all your stalks. Once you are a competent stalker the experience of being witnessed will be irrelevant as it will be perfectly normal practice for you.

Views welcomed.

 

[willie_gunn]

BDS are just one provider and they have to compete in the modern market.

On what basis do you see this as "some short course aimed at getting potentially very inexperienced guns a piece of paper"? It is not. They are offering a facility to witness DSC2 candidates where the likelihood of deer being seen is perhaps greater than elsewhere. If the candidates don't meet the criteria they will not achieve the standard for DSC2. Those would be exactly the same criteria that you were measured by.

For every individual who complains about a "short cut" being offered there will be others who say that taking an extended time to meet the criteria is simply a money-making exercise.

level two with the BDS for £492 for two days.

willie_gunn

 

[2130martin]

I recently bought some items from the BDS. Within the packaging were some leaflets showing some of the training provided.
I see BDS offer a 2 day level 2 course for £500 or their about. To me this seemed to give a conflict between BDS and their AW's. Not to mention the strange idea that it's good to "get it done" in 2 days. Surely these AW's put alot of effort into being AW's. I know they are not supposed to charge for witnessing, but it does give an edge to their offering of stalking if they witness your paid stalk. Now there in competition with the very organisation they belong too.

I'm fairly new to stalking but have completed both level 1 and 2. Not because I want a piece of paper in order to say "i'm a good stalker" but because I realized there was alot to learn and alot to do poorly if out in the field with little knowledge. I paid for many days out with a number of PH's. Some I preferred to others but all people with considerable knowledge for me to tap into before completing a 4 day level 1 course with Donnington Deer Services. Yes I had 4 days of travel costs, 4 days without earning any money (self employed) and a not insignificant cost. However I learned more than I would have from just reading the book, and left with the confidence I could cull deer in an effective, humane way and keep the carcass edible.

Having level 1 opened up the chance to join a syndicate, which I did and stalked for around a year putting in some 30+ days on the ground. So I had now some experience, whether it be the right way or not I didn't know. What I did know was that at the beginning of my stalking I made many mistakes leading to few deer on the ground, a large dent in my pocket and not a lot for dinner. By the end of the year my success rate had improved dramatically. So something must be ok.
I then see that within the next year or 2 it's likely that many land owners/managers will require stalkers to attain level 2 to continue on the ground.

With this in mind I decided to continue with the process. I always had the view that level 2 was an opportunity for me to show a qualified and experienced person that I had attained a level of skill suitable for me to go out alone and stalk deer. What it wasn't going to do was make me a better stalker just because I shot 3 deer in a couple of days. I took the view that it would be sensible to use a decent amount of the time allowed (3 years) to reach a satisfactory level. I took a year. I shot many deer un-witnessed during this time. I also payed for 3 stalks on an AW's ground where I managed to cull the deer required. As with every stalk I learned something and managed to show an appropriate skill. Now I'm waiting to get the call and hopefully the paperwork will be done. The learning will however never end. To me it's not about "getting it done". It's about being happy you can find deer, stalk deer, decide which to shoot or not, make a good shot and deal with all that comes after the shot. Now I accept this can be done in 2 days in a deer park, but does it give a stalker a chance to learn from mistakes, and put in practice that learning another day? Or does it just tick the boxes and make him OK. Level 2 passed?

I'm sure BDS have promoted the benefit of training very well, and land managers have taken the bait so to speak, becoming the authority on best practice etc they have positioned themselves well to forward the principle of stalkers having a responsibility to shoot deer in a humane and sustainable manner.

With this in mind it appears to me that they (BDS) now have a conflict between promoting the level 2 and it's completion using AW's who are NOT supposed to make money from witnessing a stalk. The SD member who I used certainly didn't and must have spent some time filling in all the boxes on the portfolio. Yes he charged me for the stalk (as expected) but to my mind carries out his duty as an AW purely because he believes in the principle of good ethics and deer management. (let me know if I'm too naive).

I'd be interested what both AW's and potential candidates think to this. My view is that BDS should further good practice through the AW scheme and not some short course aimed at getting potentially very inexperienced guns a piece of paper rather than a well earned grounding in stalking. I would encourage other like me not to get caught up in "getting it done" but to use the time to get experience and learn from all your stalks. Once you are a competent stalker the experience of being witnessed will be irrelevant as it will be perfectly normal practice for you.

Views welcomed.

You say that AW's are not supposed to charge,is that the case?I cannot see why they shouldnt.......

 

[Crosshair243]

Isn't it limited to 20 places per annum? So that's 60 AW stalks not taking place out of how many I wonder?

I reckon for people getting DSC 2 as a box ticking exercise for their employer, potential employer, cv etc it's ideal. DMQ's aren't a lifestyle choice for everyone. (That's not meant as a disparaging comment as there is no finer lifestyle for sure )

 

[willie_gunn]

You say that AW's are not supposed to charge,is that the case?I cannot see why they shouldnt.......

AW's can charge - some do, some don't.

DMQ - FAQ about DSC1 amp DSC2

willie_gunn

 

[JC275]

1. This was done to death several weeks ago.

2. DSC2 isn't about learning, its about demonstrating and recording.

3. AW's can charge as much or as little as they like.

 

[Overlay]

Pretty easily sorted, you apply for your portfolio when and only when you are or feel you are confident and competent to pass. You should have already accrued the neccesary experience, L2 is a hands on approved system of conduct to show to the AW you are competant it isn't a training stalk it's a test of competence two or twenty two days is irrelevant you should be all ready to go, the criterior is three complete stalks without fault and all the required questions rolled in and performance related review of each full outing. That's it

Stringing it out has no gain, it is Lady Luck who turns up the deer, if you get your sums right, three stalks and your on a roll, haven't seen anywhere were it said "two day easy ride", be prepared and ready, if your not, don't expect to pass, same as any other test, not up to scratch - you fail. The only saviour is you don't fail L2. You only need further experience Pretty good system when you blow away the chaff - it's all down to the candidate not the AW and not a two day stalk

Real time if you would like to ensure you are ready, spend a couple of stalks out with an AW on a evaluation stalk or two to iron out any lumps, plenty of AW's who would be only to happy to help, before you place yourself for L2 assessment stalk, keep it separated, no point in wasting your money and time when all you needed is a little guidance and pre L2 assistance in preparation to benchmark your standards.

Forget about the cost, days, lost stalks, time swotting up, it's all preparation for you, do it once and do it right there is no fast track, it's three stalks after you have enough experience and are competant


ATB

phil

 

[woodmaster]

Willie, My point is that there appears to be a view that level 2 is something that can/should be "completed" in a few days. I am merely suggesting to potential candidates that in my opinion this detracts from "their" learning. Level 2 should be viewed as a recognition of becoming a competent stalker through experience and the learning from time on the ground. Now I accept that on the day a candidate could select a park animal as a agreed beast, get within a suitable distance, ensure a safe shot etc. However does this show the same level of ability as if in the open country. Surely if the deer decide they don't want to hang around you can just wait till they settle else where and go in for another go. This has rarely happened to me, and certainly not with Sika. I accept that for some attaining level 2 is a requirement and something they need for a job. Most likely these people have many years of experience and so long as they can show on the given day that they can put animals on the ground effectively then they pass and all is well. These are not the people who I aim my comments at. I am trying to share my recent experience and say to people new to the field that they may gain more from taking their time in becoming proficient, rather than rushing in to get the pass and paperwork. I fail to see how taking one's time would be a money making exercise for anyone. Surely if a recreational stalker want's to pay and go stalking and takes their enjoyment from that act no money making has been done, other than the mutually agreeable terms of providing that facility? The client chose to pay to go and enjoy a days stalking end of. And this is why AW's are not supposed to charge an additional fee, as doing so could result in the accusation that "I was failed for bla bla bla and now need to pay for another stalk" Aw's are expected to be(and in my experience are) people of integrity. Their only benefit is the fact that they can provide this service above someone else also offering stalking who is not an AW.
Crosshair I see you point but mine is more of a matter of principal than looking at the figures. However since you bring it up that's 60 times £75 (appox) = £4500 in stalking fee's taken away from paying members of the BDS. Why not just put up the cost of membership £0.50 and save on all the organisation of providing the service. Let the members fill the demand.

 

[JC275]

And this is why AW's are not supposed to charge an additional fee, as doing so could result in the accusation that "I was failed for bla bla bla and now need to pay for another stalk" Aw's are expected to be(and in my experience are) people of integrity. Their only benefit is the fact that they can provide this service above someone else also offering stalking who is not an AW.
Crosshair I see you point but mine is more of a matter of principal than looking at the figures. However since you bring it up that's 60 times £75 (appox) = £4500 in stalking fee's taken away from paying members of the BDS. Why not just put up the cost of membership £0.50 and save on all the organisation of providing the service. Let the members fill the demand.

Sorry fella but nowhere does it say that AW's are not supposed to charge for the service, I don’t know where you have got this idea from.

To suggest that those that do charge leave themselves open to accusations of 'failing' people to ensure further bookings is, quite frankly, insulting. If you have evidence of this please take it to the DMQ Standards Committee.

I have no idea what you are talking about in your financial breakdown, please explain again how £4500 has been taken away from paying members of the BDS?

 

[willie_gunn]

woodmaster

You seem to be confusing a number of things here.

First, the three witnessed culls are the culmination of the DSC2 process. They bear no relation to how much effort, training, experience, etc the candidate may have expended beforehand. The witnessed culls are a measure of the candidates ability to meet pre-defined national standards - and it is this that is the measure of their proficiency. You are confusing how their proficiency is being measured (the three witnessed culls) with how they gain that proficiency (which cannot be taught in two days, two months, two years or - for some - two decades )

Second, the reality is that not all ground contains the same density of deer, and not every stalk results in a deer being shot. Many DSC2 candidates do not have their own ground, do not have easy access to an AW, or do not have access to both. The result is that candidates can expend a lot of time, effort and money trying to bring all three items together for a witnessed cull (the deer, the AW, the successful stalk). It is this that the BDS scheme is looking to address.

Third, the question of charging. Where do you get the idea that AW's do not charge for witnessing? As I said before, some do and some don't. I am not talking the stalking fee here, but the act of witnessing itself. If you looked at the link I posted earlier you will see that DMQ recognise this, which is why candidates are advised to make themselves aware of all costs. Many AW's charge an admin fee to cover the time and effort spent on paperwork, etc.

Fourth, and finally, this whole thing about it taking away an amount from paying BDS members. AW's do not have to be members of BDS, and not all BDS members are AW's. Indeed, BDS is just one assessment center for DSC2, you can find the full list here: DMQ - Assessment Centres for DSC1 and DSC2. BDS has to compete in this market, so what BDS is offering is a facility that their members can take advantage where they can pay to go somewhere for a weekend where the probability is increased of bringing the deer, the AW and the successful stalk together. Remember this is just witnessed culls we are talking about, which won't necessarily detract from, or reduce, all the other stalking that takes place. I would hazard a guess that the majority of this other stalking being offered in the general market is not being offered by BDS members!

willie_gunn

 

[jimmy milnes]

2. DSC2 isn't about learning, its about demonstrating and recording.

im with you 100% on point two level two isn't a learning exercise its a proving exercise, exactly the the same im my eyes as turning up for an exam in any other subject, so regarding the BDS offer you get two of your exams done in two days and either pass or fail "that parts down to your ability which is tested on the day"
regards
Jimmy

 

[JabaliHunter]

+1
Learning and/or training in preparation for the DSC2 is what should be happening in the time between completing the DSC1 test and putting yourself forward for the DSC2 'test' (i.e. witnessed stalks/culls).

 

[Offroad Gary]

I thought one of the criteria tested in l2 was to locate deer?

Oh look, there they are, behind the gate!

on 2 of my icr's I had to make a conscious, un-prompted decision to change course/location and move to a different part of the estate, as the areas that I had stalked into we're obviously not holding deer at the time. This fact was recorded in my portfolio, and in my mind demonstrates knowledge and experience which cannot be demonstrated behind, even the largest fence.

i'm proud of my level 2, it was earned on 3 challenging stalks (they're the ones I felt suitable to write up, there were others) , but it still means I'm not as good a stalker as my mate that hasn't got it yet. If he does his in a park, will he still be a better stalker?

as I said to my AW, obtaining dsc l2 demonstrates a desire to have dsc l2, that is all.

but we are better with it, than without it...

 

[timbrayford]

I thought one of the criteria tested in l2 was to locate deer?

Oh look, there they are, behind the gate!

Apparently park culls are only acceptable if the deer are free to display true wild habits, so any tame ones would not be acceptable. Not that I am suggesting that anyone has done this for DSC2 but I have observed that wild Reds and Fallow can lose their shyness if they are regularly fed in winter.

atb Tim

 

[Offroad Gary]

Surely you're not suggesting that someone might rattle the feed bucket!...

Yes, i am aware they need to be able to take flight, and one would assume that if they did that would be game over?

On one of my l2 stalks, on an estate i didnt know one bit, i was given an estate map, off site, that morning, in the dark. I stopped the truck near the estate, checked wind, then mad a decision about my approach. When i got part way through the stalk i found myself, drawn by wind direction and ride routes, in woodland that was just "not right", i reviewed the map and surrounding terrain, got a jog on, and went and found some deer...thats whats its all about, killing thems easy...

 

[Crosshair243]

I think the AW at the time will be more than capable of judging the validity of the approach in question!
I don't think shaking a bucket of nuts and shouting "Grubs up Bambi" will get you your signature

Besides Gary, if somebody does DSC2 via the paid outings route because they don't have ground, it's going to be the AW 'finding' the deer anyway and the candidate will just be finding them within the area outlined by the AW to meet that criteria?

It's a darn sight easier to locate fully wild deer in 1000 acres of arable land in winter with a few 2 acre plantations on it for example than it would be to locate park deer in a deer park of the same size which was say 2/3 woodland in the height of summer. No two stalks are ever the same but it's the ingredients of the stalk that count- and it's against those you get judged.


For a bunch of roughty-toughty outdoorsy types, deer stalkers and their ego's can be delicate little flowers sometimes

"Oh, but I had to crawl through a peat hag to get my stalk!"
"Well I got stung by a nettle on MY stalk!"
"Ah, on my stalk, I had to walk three miles up a cliff!"
"Well that's nothing, I trapped my finger in the gate!"
etc

The great thing about vocational qualifications is that you either did the performance criteria- or you didn't. The circumstances are irrelevant.

 

[Offroad Gary]

Besides Gary, if somebody does DSC2 via the paid outings route because they don't have ground, it's going to be the AW 'finding' the deer anyway and the candidate will just be finding them within the area outlined by the AW to meet that criteria?

have to disagree there, i found the deer, all the AW did was p!ss up a few trees and make more noise than was necessary.

Actually, he did something else too on icr1... I had just stalked/crawled 300m across stubble to get to some roe that were browsing on a small copse, that sat as an island in the middle of a large field, when just like the shopkeeper from mr ben, he pops up next to me with a phone in his hand, i was on sticks waiting to shoot a doe, and he says "your wifes on the phone, youve taken the car with the kids seats in and you have to get home asap so she can take them to school"! I shot the doe (in the head) and the kids got to school, happy days.

 

[Overlay]

+1
Learning and/or training in preparation for the DSC2 is what should be happening in the time between completing the DSC1 test and putting yourself forward for the DSC2 'test' (i.e. witnessed stalks/culls).

+ 1. That's where the energy should go - preparation - get trained up, so it becomes second nature to undertake a good all round all singing all dancing confident and competant three stalks to grass three deer, if you don't succeed straightaway in grassing a beast, keep at it, use it as another training day, learn something different every time you go out.

i can appreciate the views about enclosed areas, but. The aw time is after YOU are sure you can do the business within the L2 criteria ie grass three deer encompassing all that is required. The AW will have a pretty good idea after a little while on whether you are up to speed or not, so where you are stalking can be irrelevant if all the bits are where you want them to comply

atb

Phil

 

[trouble]

Its like a lot of things , its worth what its worth to you , if you dont like it dont do it