BDS Statement on Stag Hunting

That's a very poor analogy.
Shooting deer in the head is 100% justifiable on welfare grounds, in situations where it is appropriate to do so. For example, one of the reasons I head shoot park deer is because it causes less stress to the rest of the herd.
Perhaps so, but you are as aware as anyone else that these are special cases not the general case. (As an aside, in any event, the keeping of non-historic park herds is also questionable on several levels. Ought we to support the people who own or benefit from them if they come under attack?) It may be a very poor analogy but it is sufficient. The key point is that although one may find hunting with hounds unpalatable, the same principles may be applied to attack any form of field sport, farming, pet keeping or non-veganism. Undoubtedly, social prejudice enters into it as well.
Surely you accept that there are cases where attempted shots of this nature go wrong, and that over the country as a whole that must add up to a fair few deer? When they do, it causes a degree of suffering far in excess of that caused by exhaustion. I think we can also agree on that? If you don't, it would be helpful if you could elaborate where you think I am in error.

Given that, at an overall level, it is most probable that stag-hunting causes less welfare harm to deer than head and neck shots.
 
Let's bring this thread back on track. I can't see a single valid reason for Stag Hunting with packs of dogs (is it always stags). Can anyone?
It isn't scientific research, it's inhumane, it's inefficient (in terms of control).
I will try (and probably fail) to bring some balance and neutrality to this thread.

The record should show that in the first instance I am against fox hunting with packs of hounds for example but I need to be honest and explain why that is the case. It is mostly to do with the behaviour of the hunt rather than just what they are actually doing. Trespass, damage to private ground, the most unattractive sense of entitlement, blocking and obstructing highways due to this entitlement. The list goes on. None of this can be argued against. It was ever thus and will continue to be the case when hounds are loose to pursue a trail which, with some degree of certainty, will allow them to come across the scent/sight of an actual animal. Every year the hounds come charging through the golf course. There is no public right of way. The huntsmen sit on the road tooting their horn to no avail. The damage is done and grows each time they upset yet another person(s) going about their legal business but having to put up with this unacceptable behaviour. I don't see how their behaviour can be changed and the difficulty grows as they continue to lose access to more land. I know my family have now refused access to the farm due to them not listening to basic instructions about coming in to the yard where the cattle are in sheds. Too much commotion, they get in the way. They think turning up the next day with a bottle of scotch will do. Nope.

But what about the basics of what fox hunting is? Pursuing an animal, regardless of the odds, across land using a number of hounds, men and horses and the noise that follows. It is one or all or some of the following. Bullying. Ineffective. Inefficient. Ignoring the more direct social issues that I take issue with, the basics of what they are doing is not that sensible at first glance.

And a similar concept and mindset applies to Stag hunting.

I would never participate in either. I would not go as far as barbaric because it isn't in my view. But it smacks of superior behaviour, hierarchy suppression, top heavy aggression and more.

I am however always conflicted about the existence of both. I think it is easy for any one of us to say "it is more humane and efficient to put a bullet in to an animal without all the noise and bother and pursuit" And that is entirely correct. One human goes out with a gun, finds a target animal and without much fuss or bother, selects a shot, takes it and the animal is dead. By all measures of being reasonable, it is more effective in terms of cost, effort and impact on all involved in the situation including the targeted animal.

And I feel that is our (and my) mistake when assessing the suitability of hunting with dogs in the modern world we live in. It is too easy to look at it like that. It is more punishing than our ways. It is less effective. It is more time consuming. It is more costly. It pushes the animal to a much more heightened state of distress than would otherwise be the case.

So how is this ok? The question really is not if it is ok but why or how is it reasonable for modern society to pass judgement on our overall evolvement over time. We are clearly animals. Humans have, relatively speaking, been soft and far removed from how we behaved historically for a vanishingly small period of time. Like all other animals we function to achieve certain basics. We need to feed, we need to drink, we need to breed and we need to shelter from certain conditions. We ultimately need to survive and ensure continued existence. In order to do that, we continue to make use of innate feelings, skills and emotions that endure. Mostly those characteristics are now used to build, create and grow but the need to satisfy certain traits still clearly exist for some. In different ways. Chase, capture, kill, succeed. That is not a fault of anyone as such and is enforcing the suppression of naturally occurring traits and feelings fair?

The overwhelming majority of people tend to find initial fault with the thought of killing. I mean Miss Cottis will set mouse traps in her garage but will have to get me to go over and deal with it when they are set off. I on the other hand will happily take a rifle out and shoot whatever is reasonable to shoot within the bounds of legality and what I consider to be proportionate and justified need. In the first instance it is the needing to be done that motivates me to do it. I would rather be playing golf and using skills which to me are more rewarding but when I do have to go and shoot stuff, I really enjoy it. Not just the being outside but the utilisation of skills and equipment to kill. I am not an aggressive person or violent nor someone who has a bad impact upon society. But there is a natural joy to hunting including the kill. It simply satisfies a raw trait that I have and I know that I am not alone. Some might not have it, others might have theirs supressed by decades of society suggesting alternative behaviour would be better. I said I am not aggressive or violent but I kill animals? Am I violent and aggressive? Maybe a bit and in basic terms probably in a similar way to those who hunt using different methods.

So where are we? Is some killing ok? But not others? If I, we, you or anyone else is allowed to enjoy (and if you don't why do you do it?) our form of killing, is it really so unacceptable to understand and accept that others might also need to fulfil the needs they have that are quite natural. Or do we say that society has changed too much? Are we less primitive animals now (certainly we are less primitive) and because of that and fundamental shifts in how society mostly operates, should certain passtimes stop? After all, we have altered our behaviours in lots of ways over relatively short periods of time. Mostly to do with technological advancements but that is really irrelevant other than to demonstrate that our rate of advancements, means that we end up having to constantly self regulate what we do and what most of us find acceptable.

For me, that is easy to do for most things in life. I can see the overall benefit for most people and I think it is reasonable for sacrifices to be made that result in the majority being happy. This subject however always stumps me. I cannot quite reconcile the issues. I end up sitting on the fence thinking "as long as nobody is directly harmed by behaviours" then I am ok with people satisfying natural traits. It's hard. It is a coin flip with me hoping it comes down a certain way :rofl: . I cannot figure out if I am a hypocrite or if my ability to be subjective is flawed and compromised due to me knowing I receive some element of fulfilment from killing animals. Yes it seems reasonable and justified but it is still killing and I am very comfortable with that.

But to try and answer your question. Yes, I think a single reason is that this pursuit that most of us find so disproportionately unreasonable, is satisfying very natural, normal and emotional urges that animals have and in this instance those animals are humans. Those who feel it understand it. The rest of us don't. The basis for all debates basically. I don't think it can be classified as a wrong. It is however deeply unattractive to many people and I can understand why. That is why I would never be associated with any of it.

I sort of answered your question without really answering it. Or I suspect we are not wholly comfortable with the answer. In more ways than one.
 
That's a very poor analogy.
Shooting deer in the head is 100% justifiable on welfare grounds, in situations where it is appropriate to do so. For example, one of the reasons I head shoot park deer is because it causes less stress to the rest of the herd.
I think the intent here is clear too. Head shooting a Deer with the intent for instant death in the most humane way possible. If you head shoot 100 deer and mess up 2 then you have unintentionally caused pain and suffering to 2 deer but 98 deer were killed in the most humane way as intended. Chest shoot 100 deer and assuming you don't mess up any shots at all then they all suffer for a short period, shorter probably than a bad head shot. So overall what causes more suffering? Each stalker will have a different opinion on this based on many factors with no way to say who is right.

Compare this to hunting with hounds and you can guarantee that there will be a level of suffering and stress no matter the final outcome if a deer dies or not. Again it is down to the individual to decide what level of suffering Vs the gain they are comfortable with.
 
I think the intent here is clear too. Head shooting a Deer with the intent for instant death in the most humane way possible.
The thing about intent is that is consists of more than just your main intention in performing an action, it includes an appreciation of the other possible outcomes which a reasonable person would be able to comprehend. The intention is to shoot a deer and kill it instantaneously, but the intent includes the fact that you know there's a small chance of inflicting the most horrendous agony. One cannot absolve oneself from the responsibility of the 2% by saying that you tried to do something better but it was just bad luck. It isn't bad luck, it is intent.
If you head shoot 100 deer and mess up 2 then you have unintentionally caused pain and suffering to 2 deer but 98 deer were killed in the most humane way as intended. Chest shoot 100 deer and assuming you don't mess up any shots at all then they all suffer for a short period, shorter probably than a bad head shot. So overall what causes more suffering? Each stalker will have a different opinion on this based on many factors with no way to say who is right.

Compare this to hunting with hounds and you can guarantee that there will be a level of suffering and stress no matter the final outcome if a deer dies or not.
But a much lower level, to a much smaller number of animals.
Again it is down to the individual to decide what level of suffering Vs the gain they are comfortable with.
Not if you ban it.
 
I will try (and probably fail) to bring some balance and neutrality to this thread.

The record should show that in the first instance I am against fox hunting with packs of hounds for example but I need to be honest and explain why that is the case. It is mostly to do with the behaviour of the hunt rather than just what they are actually doing. Trespass, damage to private ground, the most unattractive sense of entitlement, blocking and obstructing highways due to this entitlement. The list goes on. None of this can be argued against. It was ever thus and will continue to be the case when hounds are loose to pursue a trail which, with some degree of certainty, will allow them to come across the scent/sight of an actual animal. Every year the hounds come charging through the golf course. There is no public right of way. The huntsmen sit on the road tooting their horn to no avail. The damage is done and grows each time they upset yet another person(s) going about their legal business but having to put up with this unacceptable behaviour. I don't see how their behaviour can be changed and the difficulty grows as they continue to lose access to more land. I know my family have now refused access to the farm due to them not listening to basic instructions about coming in to the yard where the cattle are in sheds. Too much commotion, they get in the way. They think turning up the next day with a bottle of scotch will do. Nope.

But what about the basics of what fox hunting is? Pursuing an animal, regardless of the odds, across land using a number of hounds, men and horses and the noise that follows. It is one or all or some of the following. Bullying. Ineffective. Inefficient. Ignoring the more direct social issues that I take issue with, the basics of what they are doing is not that sensible at first glance.

And a similar concept and mindset applies to Stag hunting.

I would never participate in either. I would not go as far as barbaric because it isn't in my view. But it smacks of superior behaviour, hierarchy suppression, top heavy aggression and more.

I am however always conflicted about the existence of both. I think it is easy for any one of us to say "it is more humane and efficient to put a bullet in to an animal without all the noise and bother and pursuit" And that is entirely correct. One human goes out with a gun, finds a target animal and without much fuss or bother, selects a shot, takes it and the animal is dead. By all measures of being reasonable, it is more effective in terms of cost, effort and impact on all involved in the situation including the targeted animal.

And I feel that is our (and my) mistake when assessing the suitability of hunting with dogs in the modern world we live in. It is too easy to look at it like that. It is more punishing than our ways. It is less effective. It is more time consuming. It is more costly. It pushes the animal to a much more heightened state of distress than would otherwise be the case.

So how is this ok? The question really is not if it is ok but why or how is it reasonable for modern society to pass judgement on our overall evolvement over time. We are clearly animals. Humans have, relatively speaking, been soft and far removed from how we behaved historically for a vanishingly small period of time. Like all other animals we function to achieve certain basics. We need to feed, we need to drink, we need to breed and we need to shelter from certain conditions. We ultimately need to survive and ensure continued existence. In order to do that, we continue to make use of innate feelings, skills and emotions that endure. Mostly those characteristics are now used to build, create and grow but the need to satisfy certain traits still clearly exist for some. In different ways. Chase, capture, kill, succeed. That is not a fault of anyone as such and is enforcing the suppression of naturally occurring traits and feelings fair?

The overwhelming majority of people tend to find initial fault with the thought of killing. I mean Miss Cottis will set mouse traps in her garage but will have to get me to go over and deal with it when they are set off. I on the other hand will happily take a rifle out and shoot whatever is reasonable to shoot within the bounds of legality and what I consider to be proportionate and justified need. In the first instance it is the needing to be done that motivates me to do it. I would rather be playing golf and using skills which to me are more rewarding but when I do have to go and shoot stuff, I really enjoy it. Not just the being outside but the utilisation of skills and equipment to kill. I am not an aggressive person or violent nor someone who has a bad impact upon society. But there is a natural joy to hunting including the kill. It simply satisfies a raw trait that I have and I know that I am not alone. Some might not have it, others might have theirs supressed by decades of society suggesting alternative behaviour would be better. I said I am not aggressive or violent but I kill animals? Am I violent and aggressive? Maybe a bit and in basic terms probably in a similar way to those who hunt using different methods.

So where are we? Is some killing ok? But not others? If I, we, you or anyone else is allowed to enjoy (and if you don't why do you do it?) our form of killing, is it really so unacceptable to understand and accept that others might also need to fulfil the needs they have that are quite natural. Or do we say that society has changed too much? Are we less primitive animals now (certainly we are less primitive) and because of that and fundamental shifts in how society mostly operates, should certain passtimes stop? After all, we have altered our behaviours in lots of ways over relatively short periods of time. Mostly to do with technological advancements but that is really irrelevant other than to demonstrate that our rate of advancements, means that we end up having to constantly self regulate what we do and what most of us find acceptable.

For me, that is easy to do for most things in life. I can see the overall benefit for most people and I think it is reasonable for sacrifices to be made that result in the majority being happy. This subject however always stumps me. I cannot quite reconcile the issues. I end up sitting on the fence thinking "as long as nobody is directly harmed by behaviours" then I am ok with people satisfying natural traits. It's hard. It is a coin flip with me hoping it comes down a certain way :rofl: . I cannot figure out if I am a hypocrite or if my ability to be subjective is flawed and compromised due to me knowing I receive some element of fulfilment from killing animals. Yes it seems reasonable and justified but it is still killing and I am very comfortable with that.

But to try and answer your question. Yes, I think a single reason is that this pursuit that most of us find so disproportionately unreasonable, is satisfying very natural, normal and emotional urges that animals have and in this instance those animals are humans. Those who feel it understand it. The rest of us don't. The basis for all debates basically. I don't think it can be classified as a wrong. It is however deeply unattractive to many people and I can understand why. That is why I would never be associated with any of it.

I sort of answered your question without really answering it. Or I suspect we are not wholly comfortable with the answer. In more ways than one.
Well you definitely got that off your chest! 😂
 
Paragraph 3 of the BDS statement is somewhat at odds with the evidence. The iconic West Country deer herds of Exmoor and the Quantocks are suffering without the wider staghound hunt influences. The human socio-economic effects of bad “law”aside the quality of the herds diminishes with piecemeal management and trophy grabbing “lest that new bloke up the road,shoots it.”
It really is a desk based ill informed statement .
 
Don’t know anything about the long term history of the deer herds of the West Country or how it relates to hunting them or any long term studies or data which would be interesting but sure many do who are directly involved and interested.
But for me if folks want to get their jollies by hunting them on land where they are welcome it’s fine by me and long may it continue.🤷🏽‍♂️
 
Well, that's me done with the BDS. I have cancelled my membership.

Nothing in life has given me greater pleasure and enjoyment in life then following the DSSH for over 50 years. This in nothing more than a publicity stunt by the BDS who are quite happy to throw staghunting under the bus for the benefit of stalking.
 
Don’t know anything about the long term history of the deer herds of the West Country or how it relates to hunting them or any long term studies or data which would be interesting but sure many do who are directly involved and interested.
But for me if folks want to get their jollies by hunting them on land where they are welcome it’s fine by me and long may it continue.🤷🏽‍♂️
At one stage the deer were wiped out but a reintroduction in 18.. started hunting again. Carried on until the infamous bill which dictated they could only hunt with 2 hounds. Mainly in my time it was farmers following along with the moneyed folk. It seemed to be that the farmers worked until their offspring were old enough to carry on then spent a lot of their time hunting. A lot of the hunting areas both stag and fox were restricted when the big high bird commercial shoots opened up in those deep coombe areas. In my 20's you could go cub hunting, stag hunting and out with the otterhounds all in the same day and on Exmoor there was hunting somewhere six days a week. How times change (for the worse) and the local ways of sporting life in rural areas without football etc become more restricted.
 
At one stage the deer were wiped out but a reintroduction in 18.. started hunting again. Carried on until the infamous bill which dictated they could only hunt with 2 hounds. Mainly in my time it was farmers following along with the moneyed folk. It seemed to be that the farmers worked until their offspring were old enough to carry on then spent a lot of their time hunting. A lot of the hunting areas both stag and fox were restricted when the big high bird commercial shoots opened up in those deep coombe areas. In my 20's you could go cub hunting, stag hunting and out with the otterhounds all in the same day and on Exmoor there was hunting somewhere six days a week. How times change (for the worse) and the local ways of sporting life in rural areas without football etc become more restricted.
Thanks for info and interesting as always, guess the hunting gene is been bred out along with educational bias in school and media,
Would like to have sampled the otter hunting though have no idea why.👍
 
There are a few of references in Pye-Smith's book on Stag hunting that are of interest and could be taken out of context......

1.) In 2004, when the Exmoor deer population was not impacted by the hunting act, the population of red deer was 2573. The Exmoor and District Deer Management Society predicted that within 10 years of the ban there would only be 10% of the herd left due to excessive shooting. The reality is the population had risen to 3266 by 2020

2.) Before the ban (when there were an estimated 2500 deer on Exmoor) the Devon and Somerset Staghounds would kill around 140 deer a year. While I appreciate that dispersing the herd can absolutely have a positive effect it seems illogical to assume that a cull of 6% annually would have any beneficial effect on the herd.

3.) Regarding the hounds ability to only hunt diseased deer and allegedly be a more selective method than deer stalking!!!.....We are informed that the deer manager on the Holnicote Estate shot 52 deer - many were selected based on the fact that they looked unfit - 42.2% of those 52 deer were indeed suffering from TB. Conversely...samples taken from 52 deer killed by the hunt, only 16.6% tested positive for TB
 
Keith

1) I think at the time that was a fair statement. However, as hunting has been able to continue, be it in a different guise with only two hounds, it has without doubt stopped the deer being shot out.

3) Those figures may and I stress may reflect a higher number of badgers on National Trust land compared to other areas. Certainly prior to the NT banning staghunting on their land the incidence of bTB in deer on Holnicot was no different to anywhere else.
 
Where do people find the time to write so much?!
Do any of you actually go stalking?
Have other interests?

Anyway, another one back on the ignore list for me, last time I put him on it as he claimed he could sort out the NHS😂
Yep some of us do stalk but weekends we would have more results if we could stalk walkers and loose dogs off footpaths. 🤣 No other real interests apart from pest control and an increasing desire for warmth and female company (even at my age). 🤪 Just having a nice morning smoking my pipe and watching nine species of birds on feeders, much better than owning a TV.🤗. Mrs Brock is keeping her distance as I write.😎🦡
 
Keith

1) I think at the time that was a fair statement. However, as hunting has been able to continue, be it in a different guise with only two hounds, it has without doubt stopped the deer being shot out.

3) Those figures may and I stress may reflect a higher number of badgers on National Trust land compared to other areas. Certainly prior to the NT banning staghunting on their land the incidence of bTB in deer on Holnicot was no different to anywhere else.
I appreciate that Charlie, but some of the quoted points - for one thing and against another - could easily be misused in the wrong hands.

On the topic, I really don't know what the health of the Exmoor herd would be like in the absence of hunting but with the presence of correct management via stalkers. It's never happened so we currently don't know one way or the other - all comments are pure speculation. As said before, I can fully understand the BDS statement coming from a 'deer welfare charity' but to each his own.
 
I do hate hunting with hounds, it is pretty barbaric and the stereotypical blue blooded toffs in their hunting attire does make me cringe. Whilst shooting the fox (I haven't seen a pack hunt deer yet) the hounds are chasing to pi$$ off the hunt off is satisfying I wouldn't vote or stand against them to stop their existence. The simple reason is purely selfish as these outfits chasing deer or foxes are a big fat distraction and a shield against the antis. They'd rather sab a hunt being an easy target than try and bother a lone stalker/hunter/shooter and I'm all for that. Thats my contribution to the 9 pages of drivel anyway.
 
Did you ever manage to get out with the Minkhounds?

The Kent & Sussex were my local pack and, along with a number of my beagling colleagues, I was lucky enough to enjoy a good number of days out with them. They still had several pure-bred otterhounds, which tended to be slow but dependable (although also somewhat headstrong.....or perhaps thick!).

I was also once out sewin/sea trout fishing on the Teifi near Cenarth, and what I presume was the Pembrokeshire & Carmarthanshire Minkhounds came through. Hearing hounds speak in the distance, and then gradually work their way up the river to where I was fishing, was a surreal, and slightly spine-tingling, experience. It put me in mind of what it must be like to have bloodhounds trailing you.

So far as stag-hunting, and as discussed on a previous thread, if you judge it solely on the activity alone there are a lot of uncomfortable questions, and to be honest I would find it hard these days to disassociate myself from the BDS position. Also the attitude of the hunting community in general has changed, and I continue to be amazed as I watch it actively dig its own grave. That aside, in terms of the staghounds history and position within the social structure of the Exmoor community, I would be very sorry to see it disappear, and remain grateful for the memories of going out with them back in the 1970's. On balance I feel Exmoor would be a poorer place without them, and will lose what has been in many ways a fundamental part of its identify.
Sorry Willie, only just seen this and no, I never managed to get out with Minkhounds.

Hound music is beautiful, in the last 5 years I've enjoyed some fabulous early mornings with our local Foxhound pack while autumn hunting. My wife and I enjoy this far more than the 11 o'clock meets. Being out at the crack of dawn, mist hanging over the stubble - hardly any mounted field - flask of tea and cold bacon butties, hounds speaking down in the woodland - perfect. I also like the fact that the action is pretty much all in 'hot blood' - short and sharp.I find the 'war of attrition' less and less palatable the older I get. Seeing any creature run to an exhausted state just doesn't sit well with me.
 
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