Bedfordshire Police have now suspended all grants indefinitely due to Plymouth.

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I’ve had an experience with beds, cambs and herts FEO this week. I put in for one for one variation four weeks ago and I had one rude and aggrasive FEO demanding I change possession of my firearms and ammunition and telling me that in four months he will follow up with my compliance. When I requested him to put it in writing he bluntly refused and threatened me with revocation of my licence, when I asked to speak to his superiors regarding his attitude I was basically to bugger off( not in those words). Tomorrow I’m going to see NRA legal department for advice.
 
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TopDown said:
For as long as licensing is the responsibility of the police it will be subject to the same pressures as forces experience, namely funding and resources
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No doubt about that. The underfunding and understaffing of the police is contrary to what every law-abiding person wants too.
 
i was speaking to a friend who is an FEO. this is down to the Coroner in Plymouth having given a directive /order requiring Police Forces across the country to do certain things. he said that most if not all forces across the country will have to stop doing renewals in the short term while they comply with this legal directive ( the coroners court as i understand it is the highest court in the land so the Police cannot even go to the appeal court, they HAVE to comply) he stated that the upside is that forces are having to recruit staff in order to comply and this will be a benefit going forward. Most of the issues have come from forces saving money by cutting staffing budgets from the firearms depts.
 
I live in herts and have no issues. My FEO is great.
Given that the police hold a monopoly on granting licenses and they must perform this duty as part of their policing charter, doesn’t this appear to be a breach of that charter and, hence illegal?

Unless they put an alternative process into place they are denying law abiding citizens from being able to apply for a license which I think breaches UK law.
 
Ratel said:
I sat down last evening and thought about this whole situation Police/Fieldports/Public.
I am getting close to the end of my allotted span and I suppose have been extremely lucky along with a couple of my still surviving compatriots.
We talked of our lives and all Fieldports and how we all have hunted with hounds either on foot or ridden. Hares, Fox, Deer, Otters, Mink were the order of the day. We have all flown out own or others Hawks and Falcons. We have ferreted or caught thousands of rabbits, done terrier work, and shot driven game of every sort. We have stalked all species of deer and even been out on the mud after wild fowl.
I now realise that we have had the best of it and I feel for the youngsters that will never see or do what we have done.
The public are by and large anti gun and were anti hunting with hounds, although they don't mind rats getting a slow painful death from poisoning.
My first gun licence came from the post office and cost ten shillings, my fac was granted by the police within two weeks. We then had to get a shotgun certificate, a white card, FAC remained the same. Next came the shotgun certificate and having to justify it, next SGC and FAC medical cert. From then on it's been all downhill and if you look at it logically things like Bedfordshire's statement would appear to be the thin end of the final wedge to remove guns from public hands. Combine this with the woke and vegan world which we are developing into and there is no long any future for shooting.
Thank goodness I was born when I was as future generations will not even enjoy half of that which I have had.
🦡🦊🦌🐇
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How very true Ratel. I too have lived through the best hunting, shooting and fishing years that you describe. Things have changed out of all recognition since the end of the war, I suspect the vast majority of shooters today have absolutely no idea of the freedom we had to pretty well roam the countryside at will. I won't be here to see it but I fear the decline in our freedom to engage in the country sports we love is set to continue. So very sad.
Perhaps the saddest bit is that those who represent us seem to have virtually no effect.
 
Can anyone gather if they are still then processing applications that were placed before the suspension?
I can’t quite find exact guidance and their offices aren’t allowing calls!
 
nic531 said:
i was speaking to a friend who is an FEO. this is down to the Coroner in Plymouth having given a directive /order requiring Police Forces across the country to do certain things. he said that most if not all forces across the country will have to stop doing renewals in the short term while they comply with this legal directive ( the coroners court as i understand it is the highest court in the land so the Police cannot even go to the appeal court, they HAVE to comply) he stated that the upside is that forces are having to recruit staff in order to comply and this will be a benefit going forward. Most of the issues have come from forces saving money by cutting staffing budgets from the firearms depts.
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That's interesting that the police can't go to court to challenge it, boot is on the other foot now 🤣.
Can't really believe that the Coroner has the power to stop grants of FACs, only a revocation of the law can do that.
 
Cobbers7788 said:
Can anyone gather if they are still then processing applications that were placed before the suspension?
I can’t quite find exact guidance and their offices aren’t allowing calls!
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It must be tough on the FEO teams mind when you think about it. They are doing their job with their budgets cut ,staff redundancies and us , the shotgun /rifle users ,still asking for the same timely level of service. This may cause even more backlogs -just after covid messed everything about too!. Im waiting for my fac here in Scotland,.i did have one decades ago but packed it in after the rabbit numbers dropped. Most likely there will be a pause up here too whilst policy is decided upon. Im hoping that applications that are on going may be permitted to move forward as many like mine were put in a few months back or possibly further back than that.
 
TringSaint said:
I live in herts and have no issues. My FEO is great.
Given that the police hold a monopoly on granting licenses and they must perform this duty as part of their policing charter,
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What policing charter? You're taking as given that there is some compulsion on the police to do everything they have a power to do. Very, very rose tinted spectacles. In a country where the police already don't do the majority of the work they are empowered to (for a variety of reasons and excuses), it's cloud cuckoo land to think there's anything that can be done to make them do licensing efficiently.
TringSaint said:
doesn’t this appear to be a breach of that charter and, hence illegal?
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Only if this "charter" both exists and is legally enforceable. Both of those are doubtful.
TringSaint said:
Unless they put an alternative process into place they are denying law abiding citizens from being able to apply for a license which I think breaches UK law.
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Good luck. Look on the bright side though, at least nobody in this country has a legally enforceable right in this area.
 
TopDown said:
@Bowland blades I dont disagree with the premise of your post but I think it slightly ignores the reality of the situation individual forces find themselves in. Some forces have managed very well, some have stayed bottom of the pile and others have moved about in the middle. For as long as licensing is the responsibility of the police it will be subject to the same pressures as forces experience, namely funding and resources. Both of those things are in short supply right now. Cuts to policing budgets have real world effects.

Coupled with the resourcing issues is the risk which has to be balanced. I don't envy either licensing departments or Chief Constables this particular issue. The knowledge of an individual, the investigation of good reason, public safety and Human Rights Act are rarely mentioned together when an incident occurs, usually only the first one. With the incidents involving certificate holders and the revelations in the wake of Plymouth played out in a media cycle only really interested in sensationalism, it would be unsurprising if the appetite for it is dimmed as far as Chief Constables are concerned. I don't believe there is a deliberate tactic to delay and refuse certification as @sikamalc may very reasonably do. That isnt to say there are not some rare but obvious exceptions. The characterisation of mis-management is an easy one to make but licensing is a very small part of what the police service does.

I think there could be a case that forces are acting unlawfully by stopping grants/variations/renewals. It would require a judicial review to make the determination though. An expensive test case for sure.

I'm not sure what the solution is. I am attracted to a national standalone licensing authority. This would ensure consistency across the country which currently exercises the shooting organisations. It should also be more efficient without all 43 forces having to arrange a licensing department. I haven't researched whether this is part of Firearms Act 1968 which can be altered by secondary legislation. If it requires primary legislation then I think there is little hope for change. I doubt there will be the political will to deal with firearms in a legislative capacity other than to further restrict the ownership of them.
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Sounds like your on the job or ex . Frankly speaking now, there is only the excise of poor management of the task at hand when other forces like mine in Lancashire are doing just fine .
Senior management should answer for failings and learn from other forces , that is after all just what industry would require . Drop seriously behind and those in charge would be warned , instructed and then if no improvement career limiting or ending moves would be made.
 
Apthorpe said:
What policing charter? You're taking as given that there is some compulsion on the police to do everything they have a power to do. Very, very rose tinted spectacles. In a country where the police already don't do the majority of the work they are empowered to (for a variety of reasons and excuses), it's cloud cuckoo land to think there's anything that can be done to make them do licensing efficiently.

Only if this "charter" both exists and is legally enforceable. Both of those are doubtful.

Good luck. Look on the bright side though, at least nobody in this country has a legally enforceable right in this area.
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🤦

You clearly haven’t read the legal angle being taken by BASC on this and similar matters where the police are refusing to perform their duty, both through parliament and the courts.
 
TringSaint said:
🤦

You clearly haven’t read the legal angle being taken by BASC on this and similar matters where the police are refusing to perform their duty, both through parliament and the courts.
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You're absolutely right. I certainly haven't read anything on BASC taking action through the courts on firearms licensing. I am a longstanding BASC member and read nearly all their output. Please point me in the right direction to find anything that involves BASC doing anything "through Parliament" (I'm particularly mystified by what abilities you think BASC or anyone else has to take any legal angle through Parliament) or through the courts to compel the Police to do anything.
 
Apthorpe said:
You're absolutely right. I certainly haven't read anything on BASC taking action through the courts on firearms licensing. I am a longstanding BASC member and read nearly all their output. Please point me in the right direction to find anything that involves BASC doing anything "through Parliament" (I'm particularly mystified by what abilities you think BASC or anyone else has to take any legal angle through Parliament) or through the courts to compel the Police to do anything.
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To be honest I can’t be bothered to trawl through the internet to find the report I read. And even if I do find it you will argue black is white.
It’s out there, go look for yourself.
 
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