Best Way To Beat the Antis

[jimbo1984]

A really good place to start is to lead by example and do so visibly. I was reading the BASC magazine this morning and the new Vice Chairman had an article stressing how the BASC may be "the voice of shooting", but every single of us is also. What we do is visible, there's no more hiding in a corner with no-one noticing. I mean here we are posting all over the internet. When I started out it was very hard to find out anything much about fieldsports. Now you're an unfiltered Google search away from a wealth of material, good, bad, indifferent. So if we start by not hiding what we do, because we're perfectly at ease with it and talking about it, because it's irreproachable and stands up to scrutiny, that will make the work of BASC etc a lot easier.

Personally, I always start by food though. No-one objects to hunting for food. Especially if it's delicious. That does not mean making everything into burgers.

But what “ work” does basc do ? Again I’ll never understand supporting an org that so many will openly admit do nothing ! Why bother ?

 

[finnbear270]

How many who post on here around B.A.S.C.'s virtues or otherwise, have actually made any effort to take part in attending and being vocal at an AGM, or some other venue where they (B.A.S.C) could be interested in listening and learning?.

 

[jimbo1984]

How many who post on here around B.A.S.C.'s virtues or otherwise, have actually made any effort to take part in attending and being vocal at an AGM, or some other venue where they (B.A.S.C) could be interested in listening and learning?.

Tried years ago waste of time and I was a member for many years .
Atb jim

 

[CarlW]

That does not mean making everything into burgers.

Well said! At times, it must be wearing to be a Frenchman amongst us Brits...

 

[finnbear270]

Tried years ago waste of time and I was a member for many years .
Atb jim

Went to a Stirling AGM one time................. What a F****ng waste of fuel and digs ....

 

[jimbo1984]

Went to a Stirling AGM one time................. What a F****ng waste of fuel and digs ....

Aye same here just didn’t want to listen , I carried on being a member for a couple more years before I’d had enough , should’ve packed in there and then to be honest

 

[finnbear270]

Aye same here just didn’t want to listen , I carried on being a member for a couple more years before I’d had enough , should’ve packed in there and then to be honest

Minded me of an old film clip of a far east Indian sub continent cavalry mess.

 

[Freeforester]

I think the best way to beat the anti,s is to educate. My children and grandchildren all know where out food comes from and for the main not from a supermarket. Teach children the need for cull polices and why we have to manager bird and animal numbers. Children are not stupid and have more understanding that most give credit, children say it as it is or how they see it (sometimes at the most inappropriate times). I think if the larger orgs were to aim at educating children and try to have lessons in schools things would be so much better. The only stumbling block is the adults in charge of educating get passed them and your on a winner. If we cant achieve this its our children who will be the anti,s of the future simply due to lack of education. Just look at what is happening with regard to pollution by plastics, ask a child there opinion on it and they will tell you straight. Most of the clean up operations are driven by children and there determination to do the right thing. All due to the fact they have been educated about the problems caused.

Indeed. The RSPV have been hot at getting their propaganda over in the schools, largely because teachers are as much ignorant of the real world as a great many parents. The Danish hunting organisation has worked wonders over the last decade or so turning around a very negative portrayal of hunting and particularly hunters (shotgun shooting) into a much more highly respected body of people through their conservation efforts, eg their duck tube initiative, where lots of fluffy ducklings have been successfully fledged over many wetlands (even rabid antis love fluffy ducklings); this got people thinking and discussing the great impact of predators on a very iconic species in Dk, and was pretty much all good news for all who got aboard:



Looking to engage with a local arts and community creative body (so not yer typical country-types) in our area here to initiate such a project; conservation, community strengthening, rewarding, outdoor-active, wellbeing-promoting and many, many other associated and incidental benefits (doing more to promote wildlife in a small-scale, practical way than many of the big so-called players too). Every journey begins with a single step: what's not to like, and it's not as though it's difficult to do? Beats infighting, imv.
Another vid of a practically-minded hero, never mind the badge worn:

 

[countrryboy]

Our cousins across the pond seem to do OK with their "Super" org.

Did u know only about 7% off American hunters/ firearms owners are in the Nra ( article in STs a few weeks ago) so hardly a high % of firearms users.
No doubting it's massive clout and lobbying power, but things are very different over there.


While ur super org doing all these brilliant things is great in theory, but in practice just wouldn't work.
How many big companies/organisations really work??? Usually the waste is scandalous, plus some of the workers will always take the Mick too.
So hard to keep the same drive and determination u sometimes get with smaller orgs.
With any big super org there is a real risk of complacency which could very well be an issue at basc.

As I've said before really hard to fault the Scottish office of basc, they do quite a lot with various Scottish wildlife charities and provide free training.
Or is that all worthless

Say we all join CA for example ( which many have big fears about after way they treated shooters in ppast, or do we forget that?? And only mind the things that suit our rants) . How do u guide them?? Wot say have u over there direction??

The set up of basc in theory should be the ideal, but possibly it's members are to blame, look at the tiny %s voting in elections, many folk voted on with only 1000-1500 votes

 

[kes]

Did u know only about 7% off American hunters/ firearms owners are in the Nra ( article in STs a few weeks ago) so hardly a high % of firearms users.
No doubting it's massive clout and lobbying power, but things are very different over there.


While ur super org doing all these brilliant things is great in theory, but in practice just wouldn't work.
How many big companies/organisations really work??? Usually the waste is scandalous, plus some of the workers will always take the Mick too.
So hard to keep the same drive and determination u sometimes get with smaller orgs.
With any big super org there is a real risk of complacency which could very well be an issue at basc.

As I've said before really hard to fault the Scottish office of basc, they do quite a lot with various Scottish wildlife charities and provide free training.
Or is that all worthless

Say we all join CA for example ( which many have big fears about after way they treated shooters in ppast, or do we forget that?? And only mind the things that suit our rants) . How do u guide them?? Wot say have u over there direction??

The set up of basc in theory should be the ideal, but possibly it's members are to blame, look at the tiny %s voting in elections, many folk voted on with only 1000-1500 votes

Why dont more vote - my answer would be - what is the point,same old,same old.
How could the last Chairman get on the BASC council, given his past history? Something very wrong.
The set up should be a good basis to move forward but for the majority it simply doesnt work.

 

[User00047]

But what “ work” does basc do ? Again I’ll never understand supporting an org that so many will openly admit do nothing ! Why bother ?

I was a member of BASC for a few years.
I think there is a generation of shooting folk who are basically all BASC members, for the following reasons:
A) Public liability Insurance
B) The belief that somebody, somewhere, is looking after our interests
C)The car stickers

I think that anyone that’s involved with shooting, that’s younger than 40 has at some point or another probably questioned exactly what it is that BASC do to protect our interests. Some of the staff there will work hard, I’m sure, but as a whole, the organisation is just not vocal enough for this day and age. They must be more proactive and make more noise or their membership is going to dwindle.

 

[25 Sharps]

You will never "beat the Antis" but you might change a persons point of view through education.

I think it best to answer criticism with positive example and logic and on a one to one basis. The organisations are working on a different level but I can do my bit with the people I meet.

I have yet to meet any vegetarian who did not accept my moral stance on being a meat eater provided I was prepared to kill and butcher myself rather than delegate the nasty bits to someone else in order to buy a plastic wrapped joint from Tesco.

I argue the honourable status of the hunter gatherer and my natural kinship with such as the bushmen of the Kalahari.

We can only deal with people. By lumping them together as "Antis" and projecting negative stereotypes on to them, one is just running away from actual interaction which is the only opportunity we have to change any attitudes.

And we won't do it with the attitude that "they" are somehow sub-human.

The title of this thread is a case in point. And @timbrayford 's intro underlines it. There are those opposed to shooting for a whole variety of reasons, so the only way to persuade any individual issue is by arguing against those particular reasons with appropriate arguments. The invective we witness on here is akin to joining in with the school bully taunting the weak kid...childish and pointless and does nothing for us or our position. How many times do we see posts on here just name calling people with a different point of view as Scum, Unwashed, Townies, Spongers, Do-gooders, Tree huggers and the rest...what is the point? It is just prejudice of the same sort that those railing on here are accusing the "Antis" of.

The fox hunting with hounds opposition includes my 95 year old mum who has, and had, many friends who hunted. But nonetheless she was opposed to it even before she had her fences broken down and hens scattered and some missing when the pack went through the village and her garden...how and why is she scum?

We must also be aware of making it a black and white "them and us" situation. There are some things which I cannot support from a logical point of view, and I know that many others on here have their own misgivings about some activities...quite rightly so. We should not accept that our enemies friends are always our enemies or that our enemies enemies are always our friends! Too many nuances.

Some "Antis" are opposed to killing any Badgers, but I have had no problem getting agreement from them when I have said that I too believe the current cull policy is flawed because it ignores the findings of the DEFRA trials 20 years ago. DEFRA found that reactive culls were the most effective. Most who were initially absolutely opposed to any killing, seem able to accept the logic....that if you remove the likely infected Badgers in the area surrounding the farms/herds with TB reactors, you end up with a healthy population of both Badgers and cattle. With just a random cull, although you will reduce the incidence of TB exchange it will take much longer and be less efficient because you may just be killing healthy animals and making space for infected ones to come in. Sure the badger numbers are generally too high in my view from the bumble bee and hedgehog damage...but by defusing the emotive element with logic and science you do not create "Antis".

The increased complexity of the firearms licensing system is introduced in the wake of the media incited outcry after every misuse of firearms...but I have met no-one yet who is not able to appreciate that it is the person who commits the atrocity and not the implement. Ask why motor vehicles are not equally feared and ownership restricted after they are used to plough into a bus queue or Westminster Bridge pedestrians. And I argued that before the terrorists actually used them...I argue that while the politicians can divert public attention by creating further obstacles to legitimate gun ownership, they can ignore the need for investing in mental healthcare and disenfranchised communities which are creating the "them and us" situation exploited by the radicals.

There are as many factors and as many possible solutions as there are "Antis".

Our only hope is logic and persuasion on an individual basis, and for me like charity it begins at home.

Alan

But what about vegans ? Opposed to any and all killing

 

[Woodsmoke]

I can see that you're going to be quite a demanding forum user.

He's not wrong though, is he?

 

[Chasey]

But what about vegans ? Opposed to any and all killing

Rubbish my daughter is a vegan and very supportive of my humain and environmentally necessary deer culling and understands how it benefits us and the environment generally

MANY vegans are simply anti the meet and dairy industry. That doesent make them anti hunting just so long as said hunting has environmental benefit and isn't just a blood sport

PS I am anti the meet and dairy industry but my protest is far more limited. IE I try and buy free range and have cut down beef & lamb consumption to a level of only in restaurants as a special treat.

Vegans like Bhudists who are against any killing of anything is a religious issue and totally fdifferent

 

[Alantoo]

But what about vegans ? Opposed to any and all killing

All the vegans I have discussed it with have been happy to live and let live....(sorry, couldn't resist ) they have not been judgemental of me and my activities...I am happy to accept it is not for them, so we agree to differ...

The usual end to any debate is along the lines of, well if you are going to eat meat, better your way than out of a factory farm via Tesco.

My vegan cousin and her daughter still visit and speak to us, and the children of our closest vegetarian friends have tried and enjoyed venison with us.

Not an issue.

Alan

 

[mchughcb]

Best way to beat Antis if it has come to that is like a rabid dog is with a good broom.

As for people on the fence free venison goes a long way to convincing them hunting is good for everyone.

 

[Chasey]

As an aside one of our permissions is owned by a vegetarian

He told me when I offered free venison to him

 

[Dickie]

The thing is most recent converts to being vegans aren’t true vegans they are just following the diet and not the rest of the idea, especially as it seems trendy.

Although the vegan diet was defined early on in The Vegan Society's beginnings in 1944, it was as late as 1949 before Leslie J Cross pointed out that the society lacked a definition of veganism. He suggested “[t]he principle of the emancipation of animals from exploitation by man”. This is later clarified as “to seek an end to the use of animals by man for food, commodities, work, hunting, vivisection, and by all other uses involving exploitation of animal life by man”.

 

[Cootmeurer]

I really liked Allantoo's post on page 1.

If we assume that the "antis" operate as a cult religion, we have some serious information/statistics/research on how cults recruit and how cult members can be returned to the fold. First, outside pressure doesn't work - it tends to galvanize them into a the world vs us mentality. What does work is individual friendship regardless of shared beliefs. From here they begins to see the fallacy in their own beliefs, because you are their friend and obviously not evil wicked cruel and subhuman. Therefore their cult "leaders" are proven false.

However, that is also what makes it hard to rescue cult Anti. First, most sportmen (not all) are rather private and don't seek out lots of new friends. They like the peace and solitude of nature and tend to gravitate toward others that like the same. Second, the antis often do behave in extreme fashion and this makes friendship rather difficult. No one is really comfortable around someone, even a close family member, that acts in a bat**** crazy manner.

 

[foxdropper]

Vegan =failed hunter