Bloody magpies!

[jall55]

Dissapointing to hear that argument raised by a member on here. It's increasingly pedalled by antis pushing for a ban on driven game shooting.

Do released game birds provide an additional food source for generalist predators in the UK. Of course they do. Is this the sole source of the increase in these predators and by doing away with driven shooting you'll restore the "balance". No chance. I would say most estates involved in gamebird releasing will be at the very least performing fox control. Many will be controlling corvid populations also.

As others have said, human activity, in urban, suburban and rural areas provides numerous, ample sources of food to maintain predator populations at levels far higher than the supposed "natural" levels. This, alongside human activity itself, can have a negative impact on the breeding success of other species in those areas.

You could end game bird release tomorrow and there are sufficient alternative food sources for the predators to switch to with negligible impact on their populations.

My view is that we have an obligation to address this imbalance wherever possible, which includes lethal predator control, not just in rural areas. The best you can hope for is to reduce the predator populations at key times of the year to a level where the pressure on the prey populations allows some breeding success. With the best will in the world, in the modern world we live in, that's probably as good as it gets.

Indeed - and the one thing we must do is engage with others or keep pushing out the boundaries - controlling predators on more and more land
The one thing we perhaps all need to do - is control predators more effectively and maybe the same can be said for deer. People like to "collect" lots of land and im sure they think they are doing an effective job - I look after maybe 500 acres in total - and that can keep me very busy - what with foxes - deer - rats - squirrels - corvids

 

[ABL]

Agreed, it should be possible to establish if there's a difference in song bird numbers as well as avian predators. The BTO breeding bird survey ought to be able to pick up such geographic changes, albeit likely over long term trends rather than sudden shifts. Winter carrion supply associated with game release is likely a major factor in overwinter survival of predators, as well as scavenging around urban fringe areas.

 

[ABL]

Dissapointing to hear that argument raised by a member on here. It's increasingly pedalled by antis pushing for a ban on driven game shooting.

Do released game birds provide an additional food source for generalist predators in the UK. Of course they do. Is this the sole source of the increase in these predators and by doing away with driven shooting you'll restore the "balance". No chance. I would say most estates involved in gamebird releasing will be at the very least performing fox control. Many will be controlling corvid populations also.

As others have said, human activity, in urban, suburban and rural areas provides numerous, ample sources of food to maintain predator populations at levels far higher than the supposed "natural" levels. This, alongside human activity itself, can have a negative impact on the breeding success of other species in those areas.

You could end game bird release tomorrow and there are sufficient alternative food sources for the predators to switch to with negligible impact on their populations.

My view is that we have an obligation to address this imbalance wherever possible, which includes lethal predator control, not just in rural areas. The best you can hope for is to reduce the predator populations at key times of the year to a level where the pressure on the prey populations allows some breeding success. With the best will in the world, in the modern world we live in, that's probably as good as it gets.

Well I can agree that game release is not the only source of food for predators. But I cant agree that the removal of 60m released birds annually would have a negligible impact on predator numbers - there's more biomass in those birds than in the combined total wild bird population of the UK. I'm not attacking game shooting at all - I shoot too - but you won fight the antis until you get real on the story of game management.

 

[jall55]

Well I can agree that game release is not the only source of food for predators. But I cant agree that the removal of 60m released birds annually would have a negligible impact on predator numbers - there's more biomass in those birds than in the combined total wild bird population of the UK. I'm not attacking game shooting at all - I shoot too - but you won fight the antis until you get real on the story of game management.

You respectfully are talking rubbish
Most - many shoots will not tolerate predators - numbers are growing because of the way people in towns and villages feed them
I - probably like many on here go out most nights of the week - I may not see a fox during my 4 hour stint on the shoot BUT i will always see one or two as i come back through the villages

 

[Mike1979]

Indeed - and the one thing we must do is engage with others or keep pushing out the boundaries - controlling predators on more and more land
The one thing we perhaps all need to do - is control predators more effectively and maybe the same can be said for deer. People like to "collect" lots of land and im sure they think they are doing an effective job - I look after maybe 500 acres in total - and that can keep me very busy - what with foxes - deer - rats - squirrels - corvids

I think the "collecting land" part is an interesting point but depends very much on the ground.

I shoot on around 4,000 acres (give or take) and feel I do a tidy job. I'm "on call" for a lot of the farmers if they have specific problems like pigeons on the peas, crows on the drillings, foxes eating whatever it happens to be etc etc. I also tend to do the rounds to keep on top of stuff....however compared to your efforts I probably dont do a very good job at all

 

[jall55]

I think the "collecting land" part is an interesting point but depends very much on the ground.

I shoot on around 4,000 acres (give or take) and feel I do a tidy job. I'm "on call" for a lot of the farmers if they have specific problems like pigeons on the peas, crows on the drillings, foxes eating whatever it happens to be etc etc. I also tend to do the rounds to keep on top of stuff....however compared to your efforts I probably dont do a very good job at all

Its not that no-one does a good job or not - Its just simply when you get into the thousands upon thousand of acres its far harder to be everywhere - looking for signs of fox - its even so much harder just travelling it and moving traps about

If it was only you shooting pigeon on peas on the whole area you would have little success maybe as they would simply move to a piece you were not shooting - think that analogy sort of makes sense

 

[Mike1979]

Its not that no-one does a good job or not - Its just simply when you get into the thousands upon thousand of acres its far harder to be everywhere - looking for signs of fox - its even so much harder just travelling it and moving traps about

If it was only you shooting pigeon on peas on the whole area you would have little success maybe as they would simply move to a piece you were not shooting - think that analogy sort of makes sense

Agree with the analogy but as I mentioned not all ground is equal. I shoot a number of dairy farms so hit the corvids hard around the yards when the numbers require it. Crops are limited on most of my ground so makes it easier to target those as and when needed. Foxes - like a lot of us I know the ground fairly well so its a combination of targeted and casual.

I dont think its a surprise I do most of my shooting on my own.....sure there are a couple who will pipe up and confirm why

 

[novice]

Well I can agree that game release is not the only source of food for predators. But I cant agree that the removal of 60m released birds annually would have a negligible impact on predator numbers - there's more biomass in those birds than in the combined total wild bird population of the UK. I'm not attacking game shooting at all - I shoot too - but you won fight the antis until you get real on the story of game management.

Guess we'll have to disagree then. The point being that current predator numbers couldn't be sustained by the total wild bird population anyway and the biomass introduced to the equation by game bird release is relatively modest when you take into account alternative food sources available to generalist predators across the whole of the UK. Predator populations are high in pretty much all areas, including those that can't be influenced by game bird release.

Put it into perspective, it's generally accepted that cats, introduced and maintained by humans, kill between 100m and 270m animals, including birds, in the UK every year. Assuming the cats eat half themselves, which is unlikely, that's a lot of biomass available for generalist predators to scavenge.

Accepted figures for annual UK roadkill is 70m. Again, the majority of which is available for other species to scavenge, in areas where systematic predator control isn't performed on a landscape scale.

I could go on. I'm very "real" on all that goes into game management. I think it's not helpful to parrot a narrative that doesn't bear real scrutiny and is being used, increasingly effectively, to attack driven game shooting.

However, and at the risk of undermining myself slightly, I accept there are other areas in which game shooting can get their house in order and an overall reduction in numbers released wouldn't be a bad thing.

Somewhat unfortunately, the demand seems insatiable, there are some deep pockets around! I'm torn between the fact that sustained interest and investment in shooting sports is a good thing v my feeling that many participants are removed from everything that goes into putting birds over them on a driven day.

Anyway, debate is a good thing, it's helpful to air our personal views and give some thought to the alternatives. Thanks for the input

 

[ABL]

You respectfully are talking rubbish
Most - many shoots will not tolerate predators - numbers are growing because of the way people in towns and villages feed them
I - probably like many on here go out most nights of the week - I may not see a fox during my 4 hour stint on the shoot BUT i will always see one or two as i come back through the villages

I think the respect is missing here - if you had this you would have read my comment before replying. I made clear that the issue was where there was game release but no predator management, as it seems is now the case in Wales where magpie shooting is no longer permitted. I know perfectly well that shoots control predators in England.

 

[Roebuck9]

Guess we'll have to disagree then. The point being that current predator numbers couldn't be sustained by the total wild bird population anyway and the biomass introduced to the equation by game bird release is relatively modest when you take into account alternative food sources available to generalist predators across the whole of the UK. Predator populations are high in pretty much all areas, including those that can't be influenced by game bird release.

Put it into perspective, it's generally accepted that cats, introduced and maintained by humans, kill between 100m and 270m animals, including birds, in the UK every year. Assuming the cats eat half themselves, which is unlikely, that's a lot of biomass available for generalist predators to scavenge.

Accepted figures for annual UK roadkill is 70m. Again, the majority of which is available for other species to scavenge, in areas where systematic predator control isn't performed on a landscape scale.

I could go on. I'm very "real" on all that goes into game management. I think it's not helpful to parrot a narrative that doesn't bear real scrutiny and is being used, increasingly effectively, to attack driven game shooting.

However, and at the risk of undermining myself slightly, I accept there are other areas in which game shooting can get their house in order and an overall reduction in numbers released wouldn't be a bad thing.

Somewhat unfortunately, the demand seems insatiable, there are some deep pockets around! I'm torn between the fact that sustained interest and investment in shooting sports is a good thing v my feeling that many participants are removed from everything that goes into putting birds over them on a driven day.

Anyway, debate is a good thing, it's helpful to air our personal views and give some thought to the alternatives. Thanks for the input

it is not understood by the cat owners that their cats are responsible for the deaths of so many birds. No, my cat would not catch and kill a bird is their attitude.
There is also a shortage of food ie flies now, do you remember when you went out for a journey in the 60s and 70s and when you got back home the front of the car was a mass of dead flies not any more.

With a shortage of food and a rise in preditors the song birds need our protection or we will soon not have any!

 

[shakey jake]

it is not understood by the cat owners that their cats are responsible for the deaths of so many birds. No, my cat would not catch and kill a bird is their attitude.
There is also a shortage of food ie flies now, do you remember when you went out for a journey in the 60s and 70s and when you got back home the front of the car was a mass of dead flies not any more.

With a shortage of food and a rise in preditors the song birds need our protection or we will soon not have any!

Wish we had the right to shoot catnon our property.
I have no problem with cats kept in a house, but why can they wander and kill as the useless owners like?

 

[Klenchblaize]

"My feeling (is) that many participants are removed from everything that goes into putting birds over them on a driven day."

100% correct. Its very sad but speaking with a lifetime of experience in observing the human condition it's most clear that many so-called passionate game shots are more concerned that a;- the type of vehicle they drive reflects/asserts their outdoors credentials and b;- said chariate sports a BASC widow sticker by way of a further 'marker' of aligence when they pull into a Cotswold PH car park.

And yes, magpie, jay, squirrel, pine marten and the family cat all negatively impact the the UK songbird population.

K

 

[jall55]

I think the respect is missing here - if you had this you would have read my comment before replying. I made clear that the issue was where there was game release but no predator management, as it seems is now the case in Wales where magpie shooting is no longer permitted. I know perfectly well that shoots control predators in England.

They do in Wales - and TBH i was trying to be respectful
No magpies - but certainly many others