Bushing dies and annealing

[purdeydog]

Hi

This may well be a daft question. I use a redding FL type S bushing die on my Lapua 308 brass. I probably don’t understand the whole concept of bushing dies as much as I should barr the basic concept.

Does using a bushing die negate the need to anneal your brass as much as some who does anneal brass without a bushing die? I’m on my 3rd firing of my brass and starting to think about annealing and if I need to. Can’t be bothered with it to be honest. I appreciate there are a lot of differing opinions on annealing and resizing within the reloading process.

Cheers.

 

[Milligan]

Bushing dies are intended to give you greater control over neck tension.
If you are applying less tension to your brass than a std die then you will need to anneal less as the brass isn't being worked as much. The reverse applies.

I wouldn't bother after 3 firings unless you're encountering black shoulders or necks that are signs of a lack of elasticity and obturation.

 

[purdeydog]

Brass all looks good to me. Thanks for replying.

 

[Dogtra UK]

I’ve bought bushing does but I have now been told that unless I a. Case neck turning they can do more harm than good.

 

[NigelM]

The dark art...

Bushing dies are easy and give you great control. Neck tension is a critical part of load development and bushing dies give you control over that tension. You can choose exactly what neck tension you want, 1 thou, 2 thou, 3 thou etc. and change it to suit your load, seating depth etc.

Annealing is a separate subject, only slightly connected. The more you work the brass between resizing and firing the more it gets work hardened. If you have a big factory no neck turn chamber and are giving it 3 thou of neck tension you might be moving the neck through 8 to 10 thou every firing. When the brass becomes hard the neck tension becomes inconsistent and either you have to toss the brass and buy new or you can annual and soften it again. It just extends the life of the brass. A tight chamber and just 1 thou of neck tension might only move the brass through 4 or 5 thou, less work hardening and more firings before you have to anneal.

I shoot 280ai and 6.5x47 lapua so at £120 a box of brass I want to extend the life as far as possible, so I minimise brass movement and anneal. Makes it cheaper in the long run. I can get 10 plus firings out of my brass with pretty hot loads.

 

[NigelM]

I’ve bought bushing does but I have now been told that unless I a. Case neck turning they can do more harm than good.

Rubbish. You only need to neck turn if the brass thickness in the neck is inconsistent. If you have good brass like Lapua or Norma it will not be inconsistent, probably around 15 thou give or take 0.5 thou. I have used Remington brass in the past and it has been all over the place and I have had to neck turn.

The bushing dies allow you to control the neck tension to whatever you want, whether it's 1 thou or 2. Doesn't matter if neck thickness is 15 thou or 13 thou, brass thickness x 2 plus calibre minus 1 or 2 thou (whatever you preference) gives you your bushing size.

You can't control that unless you have a bushing die, you just have to put up with whatever the die is set to.

Proper control with a bushing die negates the need for crimping.

 

[Dogtra UK]

Well it was a chap doing very well in F Class who told me this. Surely if the outside of the neck is at all inconsistent then when you squash it that inconsistency is going to be transferred to the inside in like a mirror image.

 

[NigelM]

Well it was a chap doing very well in F Class who told me this. Surely if the outside of the neck is at all inconsistent then when you squash it that inconsistency is going to be transferred to the inside in like a mirror image.

Lapua and Norma brass are so consistent that neck turning isn't really needed. Other makes for brass I would absolutely agree with him.

If that is the case then a bushing die gives you control over neck tension. No bushing die, no control, you just get whatever the die is set to.

 

[Dogtra UK]

I agree with what you are saying about bushing dies absolutely. That’s why I’ve got them. Shame the bushings are so expensive.

As to annealing I’m in the process of building a salt bath annealer for more control. I didn’t get on with my gas annealer.

 

[Blobby159]

Lapua and Norma brass are so consistent that neck turning isn't really needed. Other makes for brass I would absolutely agree with him.

If that is the case then a bushing die gives you control over neck tension. No bushing die, no control, you just get whatever the die is set to.

Although I have 'liked' your posts (cos I am in general agreement, especially with the neck tension control the Redding Bushing die types can afford one on one's cases), I have had a bit of a shock with case makes and the accepted understandings of the consistency of the more expensive makes of brass like Lapua (in particular here)..

I decided to check the neck wall thickness consistency measurements of my several boxes of Lapua 6.5x55 SE cases and got a bit of a shock!!. Where I have in the past accepted the generally held maxim that cases manufactured by the likes of Lapua are all round perfectly consistent I had seen some of our American Cousins doing this on YouTube, and then neck trimming them.

Anyway, I bought some secondhand Neck Turning dies (this was quite a coincidental find!) and set about trimming up the necks of a couple of hundred of my used cases in the above mentioned caliber. I now have a noticeable little pile of brass swarf from just 100 case necks and have noticed that MOST of my Lapua cases (in that box anyway) have a half and half look now. Halfway round the case necks is bright and clean from the exposure of new brass underneath, whilst again about halfway round many of the cases is still UNCUT, though scraped slightly in most instances. I had only set my Neck Trimming tool to take a sliver off the necks, approx 1 thou per side to True Them Up, but never the less MY Lapua cases at least are NOT as Perfect as the sales bumph and long held rumour about them would have us believe.

Tomorrow in good light I will take photos of my trimmed cases and the pile of swarf as visible proof..

Till then....
ATB ....... and shoot safely

 

[Dogtra UK]

I’m using once fired Norma .243 brass. Measuring loaded rounds with a dial caliper and empty cases with a ball micrometer shows massive inconsistencies.

 

[Blobby159]

I’m using once fired Norma .243 brass. Measuring loaded rounds with a dial caliper and empty cases with a ball micrometer shows massive inconsistencies.

So there ya go 'Big Sweep'..... So you might also think from your impressions and mine that the hype about these cases is there with BOTH makes ... Perhaps they were ONCE manufactured with fine dimensional consistencies, but brass now appears to be nothing to sing about.

Perhaps, just perhaps, these inconsistencies are an odd situation that isn't a regular thing, but it is just too much of a coincidence ?? Just don't know.. What I DO know is that I am let down some by this!! We have paid EXTRA (quite a bit extra as it happens for these two manufacturer's products) to discover that what we have bought is NOT up to snuff.... NOT Amused !!

ATB ...... and shoot safely.

 

[Milligan]

Wow.
The real question is "how does it shoot?"
Suspect the answer is "quite well".
You are into the realm of very high cost for very marginal gains i.e a rabbit hole, and the reality is you may be hitting other constraints on optics, rifle or even (heaven forbid) your abilities.

You may also wish to pause and consider whether the brass inconsistency is introduced by the firing and your process and what level of inconsistency is material.

Enjoy

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Stop measuring and start shooting!

If you want to work brass less and neck size then use a lee collet die
If you have £200 too much in your pocket get some redding bushing dies and bushing and a micrometer/caliper


Neck tension thickness won't vary enough in decent brass to affect your groups unless you are already measuring your groups in the 0.1-0.2moa range at 300m!

Inside reaming outside sizing is the truly uniform way to size necks

 

[Dogtra UK]

What if you are wanting to push to 700-1000 yards? Not in deer I hasten to add.

 

[Davee]

I had a similar experience as Blobby159. As my 6.5x55 Lapua brass -neck turned, neck sized and annealed- is on it's 18th firing, I bought another box of Lapua, I decided to measure the wall thicknesses and had a shock! I neck turned the whole box, not one was uncut -I was not cutting to the minimum recommended thickness-, all were thicker on one side, some were thicker on the shoulder end of the neck -cut all the way round- doughnut? I suspect the the hype about Lapua may be more to do with the quality of the brass -the metallurgy- than the consistency of the production process. In the past I have checked a large number of manufacturers' cases -bought whatever was available at that time- before I started reloading- and found that the most consistent where Lapua, Norma and Sako, some of the others were to my mind only fit for the recycling bin.
For me the name of the game is consistency, yes the groups got fractionally smaller but with a more even distribution and much fewer unexplained outliers. If I cut to the thinnest measured neck thickness I suspect I could get tighter groups at the expense of the life of the brass.

 

[Dogtra UK]

I bought my Accuracy International rifle from a guy who not only did well in target shooting but was also an engineer for British Aerospace. He said it’s all about reducing variables and inconsistencies.

My current go to guy annealed every firing, neck turns and uses bushing dies. He does very well in F Class. He says with annealing and good brass care he expects his brass to outlive his barrel doing 15-20 reloads.

Now as people often say target shooting is not live quarry shooting m, but the more accurate you are on paper, the more consistent your ammunition the more confidence you have in your tools and the higher the likelihood that you will have a clean efficient kill.

As I said to my keeper friend the other day, I see no reason why my ammo for my foxing gun should not be made to the same spec as the ammo for my long range gun.

I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but it’s mine.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

What if you are wanting to push to 700-1000 yards? Not in deer I hasten to add.

you can do that with factory ammo....

 

[Dogtra UK]

You can. But then it’s pot luck you find something to suit your rifle then you are at the mercy of market forces. How long before they stop selling ammo that contains non reach compliant powder?

 

[Milligan]

What if you are wanting to push to 700-1000 yards? Not in deer I hasten to add.

Not an issue with std dies, or factory.