Cleared land

[25 Sharps]

See HOG section 13.4, nowhere does it say to satisfy good reason the applicant must have a cleared piece of land for the largest calibre or any words to that effect. Just that there must be a suitable piece of land commensurate with the applicant's experience.

As I say, would be interested to see the legislation or section of the HOG that you must have a piece of land cleared for your largest calibre.

The key words are 'suitable' and 'commensurate with experience', if you are deemed experienced enough to have an open ticket they can establish suitability of a piece of ground from an OS map (which anyone with half a brain will provide with their application) without clearing it.

 

[25 Sharps]

Whilst I agree to some extent with your last paragraph in my opinion the calibre (bullet diameter) isn't the defining factor. As you said yourself the heavier bullet is potentially more dangerous not because it's wider but because it's heavier and carrying more energy. My last comment on it is that on one piece of land I could use a 240 Weatherby Magnum but not a 300 blackout with subsonic ammo because the Blackout is 0.06" wider and therefore inherently more dangerous and need more experience to shoot safely, in the eyes of those who clear land based on calibre (not cartridge).

It makes more sense to clear on cartridge than calibre and I would say that it is, otherwise I could shoot a 17 rem on ground cleared for .22 LR. Equally I've had land cleared for 17HMR / 22WMR, if it was cleared on calibre only surely it would have just been cleared for .22!

Certainly if it's not done by cartridge / power across the board, or at all, then it should be so we're in agreement there!

 

[Essex stalker]

I must admit I find the whole thing daft, so are they saying a ground that is cleared for a .243 is totally unsuitable for a .308,

 

[Hornet 6]

I must admit I find the whole thing daft, so are they saying a ground that is cleared for a .243 is totally unsuitable for a .308,

No, they are just saying the the land has only been looked at with a view to using a .243 on it.
That is how land clearance is done, they look when someone wants a particular calibre, if someone else wants a bigger round then they look again, when they have time.

Neil.

 

[Whitebeard]

See HOG section 13.4, nowhere does it say to satisfy good reason the applicant must have a cleared piece of land for the largest calibre or any words to that effect. Just that there must be a suitable piece of land commensurate with the applicant's experience.

As I say, would be interested to see the legislation or section of the HOG that you must have a piece of land cleared for your largest calibre.

The key words are 'suitable' and 'commensurate with experience', if you are deemed experienced enough to have an open ticket they can establish suitability of a piece of ground from an OS map (which anyone with half a brain will provide with their application) without clearing it.

I suggest you read paragraph 3 of section 13.9.

Ian.

 

[oowee]

My force is Avon and Somerset. I had 24 parcels of land cleared over three force areas with a closed ticket. Some were cleared for max call but, some were cleared for calibre requested. I started with hmr and then bought a 243 I had land cleared for some calibre and not others. I had up to 8 clearances going on at anyone time. Land ranged from 3 acres cleared for 243 to 500 acres cleared for hmr. After 12 months ticket was opened. What a total waste of time and money. If you are trusted to take the shot then you are trusted to assess the shot (land). Either trust the decision to allow someone to use a rifle or make the process for approval more rigourous. The current fudge is a process awaiting more review.

 

[Ratsbadboy]

No, they are just saying the the land has only been looked at with a view to using a .243 on it.
That is how land clearance is done, they look when someone wants a particular calibre, if someone else wants a bigger round then they look again, when they have time.

Neil.

Not so in Avon & Somerset - or at least not with the FEO responsible for the area I live. Before my cert was opened I had a conversation with him with regards to a certain parcel of land I wanted cleared for HMR. He said it was totally irrelevant what calibre I wanted it cleared for and that once a request to clear land came in, it was inspected and a decision made as to the maximum calibre that land could sustain. This would be based on all sorts of criteria such as terrain, presence and position of roads and footpaths, nearest inhabitants, etc. The reasoning behind this was that once a decision had been made the results would be entered on a database to be used for any future requests for clearance.

 

[25 Sharps]

I suggest you read paragraph 3 of section 13.9.

Ian.

'A person wishing to shoot over land should nominate in their application a specific area ofland over which they intend to or have permission to shoot (this does not restrict their ability toshoot elsewhere where permission is also given), and provide written authority, where possible,from the person entitled to grant the shooting rights. The land may then be examined andapproved by the police (if it is not already known to be suitable) in order to help to establishthat the “good reason” requirement has been fully met, and that the use of firearms andammunition will not endanger public safety or the peace (section 27(1)(c) of the 1968 Act).'

Where does it say the land has to be cleared Ian? It says the land may be examined if not already known to be suitable, not it must be examined if not already known to be suitable. Those are 2 very different statements, if it said must then you'd have an argument but it doesn't and you don't, just an incorrect interpretation of something!

Where is the legislation and again where in the guidance does it say a piece of land must be cleared?? Again people on here have said they have renewed without cleared land and you just refuse to believe it based on either your force's or your own interpretation!

 

[Hornet 6]

You lot are your own worst enemy, whatever is the point of splitting hairs like this.
At the end of the day every force has its rules, it's way way of doing things, and some forces don't like what other forces do.
The fact remains you will only get the calibre your force will let you, and every force will impose it's own wording on certificates,
and it's own rules of what is safe on a patch of land, no matter where that land is.

Neil.

 

[User00025]

You lot are your own worst enemy, whatever is the point of splitting hairs like this.
At the end of the day every force has its rules, it's way way of doing things, and some forces don't like what other forces do.
The fact remains you will only get the calibre your force will let you, and every force will impose it's own wording on certificates,
and it's own rules of what is safe on a patch of land, no matter where that land is.

Neil.

Yes but it would be rather more acceptable and a lot more efficient if the bureaucratic idiots all sang from the same Hymn sheet.

 

[25 Sharps]

You lot are your own worst enemy, whatever is the point of splitting hairs like this.
At the end of the day every force has its rules, it's way way of doing things, and some forces don't like what other forces do.
The fact remains you will only get the calibre your force will let you, and every force will impose it's own wording on certificates,
and it's own rules of what is safe on a patch of land, no matter where that land is.

Neil.

This is my point, its open to interpretation and if someone is under one force who interprets it in one way that prohibits or requires something if somebody says something to the contrary the other forces are doing it wrong!

Yes but it would be rather more acceptable and a lot more efficient if the bureaucratic idiots all sang from the same Hymn sheet.

That's the crux of it and Wilts really are the gold standard all the others should come up to!

 

[kenbro]

Well, in field shooting maybe, in range construction the guidelines are already written!

At a guess when it comes to clearing land the decision is partly to do with backdrop/back box, so if something does go wrong and there is a bad selection of backstop or bad ricochet if you are miles from any population etc. there is less chance of a bullet landing whilst still carrying enough energy to hurt someone. So easier to get clearance for .22 LR say 1.5 miles out of town than a .308.

I have a buddy who's an ex FEO so I'll ask him, unless he decides to chip in on here.

Scott, I don’t think anyone was talking range shooting here.
I was thinking hunting scenario, where a shot presents itself and you must decide if the backstop is adequate.
Would be hard for someone to to to say it wasn’t safe to shoot with a 308, but, if they had a 243, that would be safe.
Regards,Ken.

 

[25 Sharps]

It's all a moot point 're different calibre. A safe backstop for a 243 will be safe for a 308 and if you're talking about missed then a 105 grain a max from a 243 carries about 200ft/lbs more energy than a 110grain from a 308 at 500m so the bullet diameter is pointless when it comes to determining if land is safe or not.

Scott, I don’t think anyone was talking range shooting here.
I was thinking hunting scenario, where a shot presents itself and you must decide if the backstop is adequate.
Would be hard for someone to to to say it wasn’t safe to shoot with a 308, but, if they had a 243, that would be safe.
Regards,Ken.

The point I was trying to make is that is a comparison of 2 very similar cartridges but there are smaller calibres such as rimfires and equally sized bore or larger much more powerful cartridges. Range backstops for different velocities/energies, rimfire & pistol CFs/CF/HME, police forces seem to differentiate cartridge / bore size so they must have some criteria for clearing land.

At the end of the day any shot in the field needs to be into a backstop that will absorb the bullet, whether that's a 40 gr .22LR or 208 gr jacketed .308 and experience and common sense should be able to allow a shooter to make that call. A lot of new shooters may need to gain this experience with smaller calibres on land that has plenty of backstop with plenty of open land around, people that are deemed to have that experience / knowledge are given an open cert, whether that's at grant or at a later date.