As a professional guide on Dartmoor as I far as I understand offering client or guided stalking commercially during lockdown is against the law. Just wondering what everyone’s else’s thoughts are especially pro guides?
Client Stalking During Lockdown
- Thread starter donkeytwist
- Start date
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Read the local Government restrictions.
I think it is up to each and every one of us to read and understand your local restrictions and then to ask the question - can I make a reasonable justification for doing what I am doing if challenged by a Police officer.
And I would suggest better to err on the side of caution, especially when you consider the FAC holders should be responsible members of the public.
Up here in Scotland it varies from area to area. Travel out of your own area is a big issue as well as numbers of people meeting.
I think it is up to each and every one of us to read and understand your local restrictions and then to ask the question - can I make a reasonable justification for doing what I am doing if challenged by a Police officer.
And I would suggest better to err on the side of caution, especially when you consider the FAC holders should be responsible members of the public.
Up here in Scotland it varies from area to area. Travel out of your own area is a big issue as well as numbers of people meeting.
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
I would contact Devon and Cornwall police, they will give your their interpretation of the current law during lockdown.
For me, I'm not taking anyone out stalking until lock down finishes.
Cheers
Richard
For me, I'm not taking anyone out stalking until lock down finishes.
Cheers
Richard
Of course, any interpretation of the law provided by Police is of absolutely no value whatsoever. If you want to know what you are prevented from doing, then the law is published on the government's website.
The relevant sections appear to be:
Regulation 6, Exception 1. Paragraph 2, d, (iii) which explicitly permits you to be outdoors in the open air with one other person for open air recreation. This covers the client.
and...Exception 2. Paragraph 4, a) and/or b) permitting you to leave home for work where such work cannot reasonably be done at home. You cannot reasonably shoot deer, or guide clients to shoot them at home.
It does NOT prohibit you from going to work.
It does not prohibit a single client from taking "open air recreation" or "exercise" with you.
In particular, it is certainly NOT the case that one is best advised to start asking the police what you can and cannot do. They have no relevant information beyond the link above, and no professional training in interpreting it.
The relevant sections appear to be:
Regulation 6, Exception 1. Paragraph 2, d, (iii) which explicitly permits you to be outdoors in the open air with one other person for open air recreation. This covers the client.
and...Exception 2. Paragraph 4, a) and/or b) permitting you to leave home for work where such work cannot reasonably be done at home. You cannot reasonably shoot deer, or guide clients to shoot them at home.
It does NOT prohibit you from going to work.
It does not prohibit a single client from taking "open air recreation" or "exercise" with you.
In particular, it is certainly NOT the case that one is best advised to start asking the police what you can and cannot do. They have no relevant information beyond the link above, and no professional training in interpreting it.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
And I would suggest the above is a good and reasonable interpretation of the government regulations if those are the rules for your area.
I am not going shooting tomorrow as I am in Level 3 and we are specifically not allowed to leave our area unless for a very good reason. And going for a walk or shooting for recreation is not deemed a good reason.
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
Sorry chap, you misunderstood my post, I said D&C police, I can't speak for other forces, or where you are and your forces interpretation of the rules you have clearly stated.
What I can say is, my own position I am not willing to guide anyone as it is impractical, you can't share the same car to travel to the area, and parking 2 cars just will not work.
I looked at this, from a curisosity perspective.
I don't think the guide would have a problem. As others have said, it is your job and certainly it is not one which can be done at home.
The issues is the client. It's not their job and the open air recreation exemption only applies to public land. I guess if you have a forest enterprise contract then arguably you would be out on public land and so ok, similarly if the land is CROW access land. In most cases I think you'd fall foul as you'd be on private property.
I guess you could argue that it is exercise because of the walking element and as exercise can be on private land I suppose that may be a work around. However, when faced with the distinction between exercise and outdoor recreation in the legislation, I expect most police would decide (fairly in my view) that stalking is better termed recreation (certainly in the guided client sense). I have a feeling the courts might agree.
Whilst they are currently cancelled, I actually think the BASC Hockwold scheme could have carried on in lockdown because it is all on FE land (or if small parts aren't, then by not using them).
I don't think the guide would have a problem. As others have said, it is your job and certainly it is not one which can be done at home.
The issues is the client. It's not their job and the open air recreation exemption only applies to public land. I guess if you have a forest enterprise contract then arguably you would be out on public land and so ok, similarly if the land is CROW access land. In most cases I think you'd fall foul as you'd be on private property.
I guess you could argue that it is exercise because of the walking element and as exercise can be on private land I suppose that may be a work around. However, when faced with the distinction between exercise and outdoor recreation in the legislation, I expect most police would decide (fairly in my view) that stalking is better termed recreation (certainly in the guided client sense). I have a feeling the courts might agree.
Whilst they are currently cancelled, I actually think the BASC Hockwold scheme could have carried on in lockdown because it is all on FE land (or if small parts aren't, then by not using them).
Realistically, in England at least, you are supposed to be tucked up back at your own home at night, after taking whatever outdoor recreation.
If a client can't do that, i.e. drive there, stalk, return within the day, then I don't see it being responsible behaviour.
I have thought long and hard about this, and having a camper van could kip overnight safely, but I'm pretty sure that's not allowed at the moment. So, for me, guided stalking is off the cards until the situation is relaxed.
Being single I could I suppose claim to "bubble" with the guide for the duration, but that's not really in the spirit of these times.
If a client can't do that, i.e. drive there, stalk, return within the day, then I don't see it being responsible behaviour.
I have thought long and hard about this, and having a camper van could kip overnight safely, but I'm pretty sure that's not allowed at the moment. So, for me, guided stalking is off the cards until the situation is relaxed.
Being single I could I suppose claim to "bubble" with the guide for the duration, but that's not really in the spirit of these times.
Agreed. My comment only applies to England.
Personally I have nor worked since the 31st of January this year all my clients are Euopean so restrictions both here
and there coupled with quarantine requirements have made it impossible.
Looks !ike May next year at the very earliest before I can resume.
Never mind if Covid hasn't got me by then bankruptcy will have.
Looks very like I may never work again
and there coupled with quarantine requirements have made it impossible.
Looks !ike May next year at the very earliest before I can resume.
Never mind if Covid hasn't got me by then bankruptcy will have.
Looks very like I may never work again
Maybe if the pro guides on here could advertise where they could take paying clients, those of us who pay for stalking could book on SD and help?
I can't all my clients are European and I can't change that I contract to a company who lease the sporting rights of a olarge sporting estate their clients are all European.
No furlough for me as I work on contract basus only paid for work done not a set wage, also not eligible for any of the
Government schemes as I'm past retirement age , although not able to work I still have business expenses such as
Public liability and product insurance, commercial insurance on my truck and several other business expenses that still
need to be paid , can't really cancel them due to the uncertainty of when I might not be able to start again.
Don't get the idea that i'm looking for sympathy, I'm not! It is what it is, there are many in a similar position or worse than
that which I'm in.
No furlough for me as I work on contract basus only paid for work done not a set wage, also not eligible for any of the
Government schemes as I'm past retirement age , although not able to work I still have business expenses such as
Public liability and product insurance, commercial insurance on my truck and several other business expenses that still
need to be paid , can't really cancel them due to the uncertainty of when I might not be able to start again.
Don't get the idea that i'm looking for sympathy, I'm not! It is what it is, there are many in a similar position or worse than
that which I'm in.
Understood and its not a sympathy vote - more a question of what we all might do to help eachother in these odd times - people lose out by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I hope the vaccine changes the outlook for you, so best of luck anyway. I'm a habitual problem-solver and an eternal optimist, so its a problem to solve, that's all.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
As you are past retirement age its tough I agree, But although you say not able to work but still have business expenses such as Public liability and product insurance, commercial insurance on your truck and several other business expenses that still need to be paid.
All I would advise you is to cancel the insurances and the other mystery ones to reduce your outgoings as nothing will be changing in the next six months IMO.
Stay safe.
McKenzie
Well-Known Member
I seem to remember that you are a pointer man; I could be interested in a day over pointers with another gun if the opportunity presents itself this season.
Can't see it , unlikely to be anything and if we suddenly found we could go ahead there is a backlog of company clients who had already booked before everything.was locked down , so they would have to come first.
Sorry!
Hants
Well-Known Member
I asked BASC this question from the client perspective, particularly with travelling to a booked stalk in mind. Here is the response. Sadly had to postpone my booking.
Chanty Wrassler
Well-Known Member
The Scottish Government document
NRS Web Continuity Service
www.gov.scot
- local outdoor informal exercise such as walking, cycling, golf, or running (in groups of up to 6 people from no more than 2 households) that starts and finishes at the same place (which could be up to 5 miles from the boundary of your local authority area)
Chanty Wrassler
Well-Known Member
Reading it more carefully, this isn't really a restriction as it doesn't say "which must be within 5 miles", merely "it could be". Typical sloppiness when something is rushed through as a knee-jerk reaction.
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