Community Larder

[Dan Newcombe]

Total pie in the sky at the moment but (without falling out with each other) - what would people pay for use of a larder?

Thinking about the potential for setting one up on a ‘community’ basis and charging a membership fee and a hanging fee to cover any rent and running costs and would be interested to know what people think would be reasonable.

I’m thinking a couple hundred pounds membership and maybe £5 per carcass?

Obviously I don’t want to be out of pocket on it and paying for other peoples facility but what would be provided is essentially somewhere to put deer for either game dealer collection or your own use, we would sort the waste disposal etc and make sure it’s clean (would expect people to clean after use obviously).

We hear a lot about people not shooting deer because they don’t have the facilities - how much a that facility worth to you?

This isn’t an argument about how much a dealer would pay - that’s for you to figure out but it would be one dealer collecting so the price would essentially be fixed.

Any thoughts?

 

[Dave31]

It's the sort of thing I would take advantage of if it were closer.

 

[Fair Hill]

Absolutely top class idea that could mushroom once run with clear guidelines from the outset.

Might even be some sort of funding supports available, great idea and best of luck with it.

 

[Suilven]

I’m thinking a couple hundred pounds membership and maybe £5 per carcass?

I'd pay that, no problem. Great idea hope it's a success

 

[nicklm]

Great idea, would make use of that if local enough

 

[muddy42]

This is an interesting idea that I have thought about before.

In my part of rural South West Scotland, there are no game dealers that will collect from private sellers and no dealers that you can deliver to within 40 miles. Before taking every shot I have to think, when am I going to butcher this, who will take the meat? However on investigation this last dealer does collect from a large estate that provides enough scale. Maybe they would collect from a community larder which would also provide scale.

I think there are two main obstacles 1) cost and 2) hygiene/traceability.

The first is self explanatory, to get a full set up is not cheap, plus don't underestimate ongoing to time to check on things, deep clean etc. i don't think you are trying to make a profit, so these costs just need to be covered somehow.

The second aspect needs a bit more thought. I think you'd need to know that everyone with access is suitably qualified (large Game handling cert or more?) and is well behaved. Unfortunately I still see carcasses treated really badly but even well trained and experienced people. Would you allow skinning/butchery/preparation of food and subsequent registration with the council? What happens if things go wrong, and a poor carcass enters the food chain or blood gets into someone's water supply? What happens if the communal facilities are deemed to be substandard? what happens if the power or chiller fails? Where does the buck stop, who is in charge, does this person or organisation need some extra PI insurance? Do you record everything with CCTV?

I think FLS operate large larders for their contractors so there must be a way through all this.

Good luck.

 

[VSS]

It would be a great thing to do if you're in an area where there's sufficient demand for it.

 

[roaring_stag]

Dan,

I've just given you a PM.

Thanks,

RS

 

[Dan Newcombe]

I would hope there would be demand and the questions raised are all appreciated.

With regard to traceability there would need to be a requirement to have and prove the game handling qualification and from there you would tag them as usual with the relevant declaration and the dealer collects and pays the individuals directly - only the storage would be communal. This would be where the ‘membership’ would come in because it gives control over use.

There is some grant funding available but longer term maintenance costs would need to be considered - as suggested, we aren’t looking to make vast amounts of money at this bit more would like to facilitate things locally.

I wouldn’t think CCTV is required, billing would be based on carcasses uplifted by the dealers or declared and checks would be carried out for own use carcasses - I would hope fellow stalkers would by Tuesdays.

No preparation facility - just chilled storage effectively as I don’t want to go down too much of a complex route, I envisage it to be a simple thing along the lines that they operate in Australia for the kangaroo shooters.

 

[.25-06]

It's a great idea, almost essential looking to the future. Agreeing the fine print may be nigh on impossible. Getting council, sepa, users and Community to agree together ....challenging.
Also if it only one carcass in the chiller I've seen the owners refuse to run the chiller and the gamedealer refuse to collect.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Around 2014/15 I got quite far with a feasibility study of setting up a Commercial Game processing facility - Quotes for equipment, budgets, costings, cash-flow - you name it. The plan was to use Game to produce Charcuterie: So Salami, Chorizo, Cervelat, Bresaola, etc.

However I did run into the following issues:

1. Little understanding from the local Councils' EHO department re wild game meat - it was all a bit of an educational process - with me being the teacher.
2. The problem with irregular supplies of different sizes of carcasses at different times of the year from different species, which would lead to huge quality variations.
3. Not being able to control the process from the moment of the cull to the moment of the carcass being delivered to the larder. I am still having nightmares thinking of a gralloch I witnessed last week, in 35C temperatures, where the DSC2 qualified Gent used his knife like you would use a Bajonet charging an enemy trench, rupturing the rumen resulting in green rumen content spilling out, from a carcass that had been laying in the wood for two hours before the gralloch. If that same carcass -with flies taking a lot of interest- then ends up in the back of non-refrigeratored truck for a few hours before being delivered to the Larder you may have a problem (!). (I then tried to demo a different method of gralloching on the second carcass, and managed to rupture the blown-up oesophagus at my first stroke! Not my finest hour...)
4. My intended main market (Hospitality and Catering) did express a preference for very standardised sizes and quality - something that is more realistic when venison supplies come from a deer farm.
4. The requirement to separate the carcass processing facilities from the curing/air-drying facilities. One continues production line was not possible - the curing/drying room had to be a physically separate premises. Fair enough, I do understand about food hygiene, but it did add to the setting up cost. (This add-on process is of-course something you don't need to do)

So. These are just a few points to carefully consider. But- I hope you succeed where I failed.

 

[Klenchblaize]

A good idea if you can be certain of aligning with assured GD collection.

The biggest hurdle will be that raised by Liability and Health & Safety considerations. There being need for fully developed operating protocols/procedures with a site and task-specific set of RAMS.

Think “lone working” and what happens if a member of the community culling team cuts their wrist or traps fingers in the carcass transport rail etc.

This is not to suggest it can’t be made to work.

K

 

[muddy42]

It's a great idea, almost essential looking to the future. Agreeing the fine print may be nigh on impossible. Getting council, sepa, users and Community to agree together ....challenging.
Also if it only one carcass in the chiller I've seen the owners refuse to run the chiller and the gamedealer refuse to collect.

I think you'd need enough scale to ensure this doesn't happen - funding to run the chiller and a dealer that collects on a set schedule, rain or shine.

A good idea if you can be certain of aligning with assured GD collection.

The biggest hurdle will be that raised by Liability and Health & Safety considerations. There being need for fully developed operating protocols/procedures with a site and task-specific set of RAMS.

Think “lone working” and what happens if a member of the community culling team cuts their wrist or traps fingers in the carcass transport rail etc.

This is not to suggest it can’t be made to work.

K

Yes to protocols etc. But I think it needs to thought of beyond just a storage facility for a collection of individuals. There are things that can go wrong that wouldn't be an individual user's fault - a powercut, the chiller fails for a few hours overnight and somehow off meat enters the food chain, someone gets locked in the chiller, gralloch gets into someones drinking water etc. These risks are small but ultimately the residual risk needs to be held/insured by the organiser/owner.

 

[76thirty]

I’d love something like this in Herefordshire and know others that would use it, Pricing seems fair too obviously providing the above points were considered/covered

 

[Klenchblaize]

And then there’s certain to be at least one member who’s doesn’t understand what a broom, hose and dishcloth are for!

K

 

[Dan Newcombe]

We would not be operating a culling team as it were - it’s just a storage facility so yes there would be risk assessments for manual handling, knives, cleaning chemicals and locking yourself in etc - but lone working etc wouldn’t be part of it.

Individual users would have their own risk assessments as well to cover all of these things - lone working should be covered for their whole operation.

How does anyone operate in the event of the chiller breaking down between turning it on with carcasses in it and the dealer collecting - I know very few people who would be there regularly when the pick up happens.

With reference to gralloch etc I would envisage it going into bins and then collected by the knackery with a waste notice / receipt - with the proviso that you bring as little back as possible to make it as easy as possible.

Dealer collections have never been a particular problem here and with the deer numbers and the claims made by many local stalkers there should be a decent through put .

There is obviously a lot to consider but I want this to be as simple as possible - I’d not even plan to provide knives to be honest because then I’m liable for them.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

And then there’s certain to be at least one member who’s doesn’t understand what a broom, hose and dishcloth are for!

K

Absolutely - but it wouldn’t be hugely hard to figure out who it is and some sort of card system or a hefty fine will winkle them out.

 

[hunterscabin]

one slight issue with a larder is the bloody electric to keep her running .

 

[hunterscabin]

we used to let people use our larder ,but they wouldn't clean afterwards ,we even had a couple hundred doos thrown on the floor and even worse there was shed doos in em too .

 

[Klenchblaize]

I fear this thread serves to again demonstrate the North/South devide!

IMHO we need to bring as much deer waste back to a larder for segregated waste disposal rather than leaving it throughout Lowland wood & meadow. You soon runout of fox earths to fill & plug!

K