Copper and blood trails

[John Doe]

I put an Freedom of information request into FE earlier this year...

Between September 2016 and May 2022 they had culled 86,000 deer and wild boar with non-lead ammunition. They ceased to use any lead ammunition for culling deer and boar after September 2016.

Sounds like it works fairly well to me.

That’s interesting, I wonder if this includes Contractors or just in house staff? It averages out at 14,333 animals per year, really surprising that it is as low as that considering some Contractors are claiming to shoot around 1000 per year to their own gun and plenty of professional Stalkers will be easily over the 500 mark?

 

[StephenToast]

That’s interesting, I wonder if this includes Contractors or just in house staff? It averages out at 14,333 animals per year, really surprising that it is as low as that considering some Contractors are claiming to shoot around 1000 per year to their own gun and plenty of professional Stalkers will be easily over the 500 mark?

I think you are Including Scotland. That figure is for England only.

I also asked how many people achieved this number and the response was "Circa 70 trained staff members."

 

[John Doe]

I think you are Including Scotland. That figure is for England only.

I also asked how many people achieved this number and the response was "Circa 70 trained staff members."

Fair do’s, those high scoring Contractors will be working north of the Border. For England only that works out at just over 200 animals per year per Ranger then. I dread to think what that costs per animal when you take into account all the salaries, infrastructure, pensions, training, administration and all the other myriad of costs involved. It would be fascinating to see how the real P&L looks per deer for FE and how that compares to the private sector but I guess it would be virtually impossible to pin it down to a fair comparison.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I put an Freedom of information request into FE earlier this year...

Between September 2016 and May 2022 they had culled 86,000 deer and wild boar with non-lead ammunition. They ceased to use any lead ammunition for culling deer and boar after September 2016.

Sounds like it works fairly well to me.

Well thats chucked a spanner in the works

 

[wytonpjs]

Another TTSX roe kid photo - this is the exit wound. Poor kid did a full backwards somersault and was dead on the spot.

 

[RM100]

I managed to find some pics showing exit wounds, S&B Blue Exergy 6.5CM, ranges around 60yds for the mu tie and around 150yds for the fallow.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

We cannot really talk about 'Copper' bullets as if they are all the same. The designs and weights will all perform differently. Is it polymer tip? If so what size? How hollow is the section directly behind the tip. Is it hollow point? Is it a pre-fragmented design? What velocity is it designed to expand at? What quarry at what range is the bullet designed for - Elk at 300 metres or munty/kids at 75 metres?

 

[StephenToast]

Fair do’s, those high scoring Contractors will be working north of the Border. For England only that works out at just over 200 animals per year per Ranger then. I dread to think what that costs per animal when you take into account all the salaries, infrastructure, pensions, training, administration and all the other myriad of costs involved. It would be fascinating to see how the real P&L looks per deer for FE and how that compares to the private sector but I guess it would be virtually impossible to pin it down to a fair comparison.

I wouldn't know the costs. I was more interested in non-lead and what theu were doing with that.

 

[Blaser243]

Real world testimony - Fox 130gn on a fallow at 95m yesterday, quartering shot in slightly to the right of the right foreleg and exited on a downward/backward trajectory. Took out the vessels at the top of the heart, smashed the lungs around a good bit and created a 1" exit wound. Strong blood trail - not gushing but a very clear trail of spots (on the floor and up tree trunks) for 30m to where the deer lay. Many I've had have simply dropped on the spot. I had just one (out of about 50 deer so far) lost, and there was a strong bright blood trail and small pieces of lung from a standard chest shot at c.100m which appeared good and strong reaction to shot. The trail suddenly stopped though - and even the dog didn't find it. Thought that it went into thick cover or ran on a long way with a high lung shot - so perhaps it is possible that if they don't hit something firm enough they pencil through more than lead.

 

[Tim.243]

Real world testimony - Fox 130gn on a fallow at 95m yesterday, quartering shot in slightly to the right of the right foreleg and exited on a downward/backward trajectory. Took out the vessels at the top of the heart, smashed the lungs around a good bit and created a 1" exit wound. Strong blood trail - not gushing but a very clear trail of spots (on the floor and up tree trunks) for 30m to where the deer lay. Many I've had have simply dropped on the spot. I had just one (out of about 50 deer so far) lost, and there was a strong bright blood trail and small pieces of lung from a standard chest shot at c.100m which appeared good and strong reaction to shot. The trail suddenly stopped though - and even the dog didn't find it. Thought that it went into thick cover or ran on a long way with a high lung shot - so perhaps it is possible that if they don't hit something firm enough they pencil through more than lead.

Last week Fallow buck 160 yds high lung just behind the shoulder 150gn (lead) head .270 pencled through. Dead where it stood, never twiched.

Above the exit penciled though soft part of the ribs @250 yards 95gn sst .243 63kg live weight ran 60yds.

 

[Mungo]

Ok- took me a while to find these.

First: roe buck, heart shot at 250m with Fox 120gr (I think - @Edinburgh Rifles can confirm the grains) in .270. It ran 20m and piled up dead. Giant blood trail, no problem following.

 

[Mungo]

Second: roe doe, lung shot at 220m, same bullet as above (Fox 120gr in .270). Ran like the clappers for 40m. Tiny blood trail, took ages to follow, proper hands and knees stuff:

 

[Mungo]

Third: roe doe. Low heart shot at 230m, same bullet as above (Fox 120gr in .270). Leaped up, ran in very erratic zig zag, disappeared into brash. Couldn't find the strike site (I was off with my landmarks), and I actually blundered into the very obvious blood trail - it had gone down within 20m of the strike site, but had not run in a straight line:

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Second: roe doe, lung shot at 220m, same bullet as above (Fox 120gr in .270). Ran like the clappers for 40m. Tiny blood trail, took ages to follow, proper hands and knees stuff:

What velocity is that pushing? Maybe at 220 the velocity has dropped below to minimum for reliable expansion

 

[Mungo]

Fourth:

roe doe. Mid lung shot with 150gr ballistic tip (lead) in .308. Shot at 70m. Bolted into sitka restock (hurrah, hurrah). Took ages to find anything at all, eventually started finding the odd spot of blood on the trees, until finally saw a big spray. Think fat or something had blocked the wound. Had probably run 30m in total, but that might as well be on the moon in sitka in the dark...

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Fourth:

roe doe. Mid lung shot with 150gr ballistic tip (lead) in .308. Shot at 70m. Bolted into sitka restock (hurrah, hurrah). Took ages to find anything at all, eventually started finding the odd spot of blood on the trees, until finally saw a big spray. Think fat or something had blocked the wound. Had probably run 30m in total, but that might as well be on the moon in sitka in the dark...

I'm loving all of these reports I must say. Love the first hand experience. I'd day that big spray was the chest cavity eventually filling up

 

[Mungo]

What velocity is that pushing? Maybe at 220 the velocity has dropped below to minimum for reliable expansion

Not sure - @Edinburgh Rifles can confirm! However, if you compare with the previous and subsequent cases, the bullet and range were the same. The only difference was placement.

I think within normal stalking ranges (out to c.250-300m), placement probably affects outcome more than lead v copper.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Not sure - @Edinburgh Rifles can confirm! However, if you compare with the previous and subsequent cases, the bullet and range were the same. The only difference was placement.

I think within normal stalking ranges (out to c.250-300m), placement probably affects outcome more than lead v copper.

Yeah I posted that before I seen your other posts

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

9 pages of a load of old women worrying about the same subject thats been discussed 1000 times!

If your that worried about blood trails, bust shoulders or neck them!

It really is as simple as that.

 

[Markez]

Another TTSX roe kid photo - this is the exit wound. Poor kid did a full backwards somersault and was dead on the spot.
View attachment 282493

What weight of TTSX/Calibre? Quite a big hole that.....!