Copper bullets - shoulder or armpit?!

[Markez]

Evening,

Just wondering if those that use copper bullets aim for the shoulder or just behind, as you would 'typically' with lead? I only ask as the people I have asked so far have varying opinions.

Any experience of shoulder shots with 130gr TTSX on Roe? Lots of/too much damage?

Thanks

Mark

 

[DavyG]

Marmite & copper…one either loves it or hates it.
DG

 

[splash]

Mark
My experience with copper is very little meat damage, used .243 and .260 mainly fallow traditional heart shot, shoulder shot head and neck shots.
All killed as expected but ! Because the bullets don’t expand like a traditional lead core you cannot afford to be sloppy with accuracy.
I personally have not so far had any long runners I did have one that was a lung shot that collapsed but seamed to take an age to succumb to the shot, I could see the deer’s head but not it’s body and due to it’s movement could not shoot it a second time.

 

[HonestJohn]

Shoulder/autonomic plexus for copper, unless it’s of the frangible composition, then H/L. And that’s assuming UK thin skinned game

Disregarding head/neck shots placement

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

I use 130 TTSX out of my .308 Win with good effect on Roe and Red.
Keep the Terminal Velocity above 2200 FPS and you'll' not have any problems. I have attached what I would use as shot placement for minimal run distance - damage is very tidy and just an 1"-1.5" hole with little to no bruising.

I would recommend it as the ideal bullet choice in a .308 for most applications, lead and non-lead included.

Ben

 

[Markez]

Many thanks for all responses and to Ben for the really helpful diagram. Greatly appreciated.

 

[paul o']

Only one runner 130 fox .270 205 yrds giving a good trail of lung and blood to follow but only made 20yrds rest have dropped on the spot but neck shots.

 

[Markez]

I use 130 TTSX out of my .308 Win with good effect on Roe and Red.
Keep the Terminal Velocity above 2200 FPS and you'll' not have any problems. I have attached what I would use as shot placement for minimal run distance - damage is very tidy and just an 1"-1.5" hole with little to no bruising.

I would recommend it as the ideal bullet choice in a .308 for most applications, lead and non-lead included.

Ben

View attachment 281896

As an aside, my rifle is 30.06. Assume still no significant meat damage??

Thanks again

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

As an aside, my rifle is 30.06. Assume still no significant meat damage??

Thanks again

No, I shoot a .300 WSM on Roe/Red - last season I was using 150 TTSX at 3342 FPS and that was tidy enough on everything (roe doe taken at 100-150M below):



I wouldn't push the Barnes much over 3350FPS as shortly after that you may start to see petals shed at close range.

Hope that helps,

Ben

 

[Adyb]

Go for classic heart/lung top of leg shot for roe unless in really dense cover or on the edge of a cliff. High shoulder pin with 130ttsx will go right through both taking out a fair bit of shoulder meat and likely bruise your rack/backstraps...

 

[JH83]

One of the benefits of copper is that they are no where near as messy. Shooting for major bone in the shoulder is done routinely for 2 reasons, 1 you can get away with it as it won’t ruin the whole front end of the beast, 2 they often don’t leave a distinct blood trail, so if your deer goes for a post mortem jog into the thick stuff-you are in trouble!

The caveat to the above is if (as @Brave Echo Niner aludes to) you are really pushing them they can still blow up. My 6.5 is in the same area speed wise as his WSM and if you pin a roe close up, it’s a mess-no where near as bad as with fast frangible lead mind. My 308 is 130 TTSX at 3000fps and it is very well behaved.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Evening,

Just wondering if those that use copper bullets aim for the shoulder or just behind, as you would 'typically' with lead? I only ask as the people I have asked so far have varying opinions.

Any experience of shoulder shots with 130gr TTSX on Roe? Lots of/too much damage?

Thanks

Mark

I think most conversations now are about (at least) two 'types' of copper - those that are designed to fragment and those that are designed to mushroom/expand but retain weight.

Also, when people on here are talking about 'shoulder' placement, are they talking about hitting the scapula or just the muscle tissue? As a dog breeder - front 'angulation' is very important and the angulation on a deer is not that much different giving an off-set 90 degree bone angulation with a big gap of 'meat' in between. When getting critical and forensic about how bullets perform/behave, what it hits first has a big impact (no pun) on the result.

 

[Markez]

One of the benefits of copper is that they are no where near as messy. Shooting for major bone in the shoulder is done routinely for 2 reasons, 1 you can get away with it as it won’t ruin the whole front end of the beast, 2 they often don’t leave a distinct blood trail, so if your deer goes for a post mortem jog into the thick stuff-you are in trouble!

The caveat to the above is if (as @Brave Echo Niner aludes to) you are really pushing them they can still blow up. My 6.5 is in the same area speed wise as his WSM and if you pin a roe close up, it’s a mess-no where near as bad as with fast frangible lead mind. My 308 is 130 TTSX at 3000fps and it is very well behaved.

Many thanks. Really helpful.

M

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Mark
My experience with copper is very little meat damage, used .243 and .260 mainly fallow traditional heart shot, shoulder shot head and neck shots.
All killed as expected but ! Because the bullets don’t expand like a traditional lead core you cannot afford to be sloppy with accuracy.
I personally have not so far had any long runners I did have one that was a lung shot that collapsed but seamed to take an age to succumb to the shot, I could see the deer’s head but not it’s body and due to it’s movement could not shoot it a second time.

I'm going to try Hornady Outfitter GMX next season to see what the fuss is about, but this statement in and of itself makes my toes curl. Essentially saying, they'll do the job, but they're not ideal.

When hunting, nothings a guarantee and accuracy can fall off if taking a rushed or unstable shot. Part of me would rather remain with a more forgiving load....just in case things go squirrelly and you pull a shot, or estimate range incorrectly etc.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

One of the benefits of copper is that they are no where near as messy. Shooting for major bone in the shoulder is done routinely for 2 reasons, 1 you can get away with it as it won’t ruin the whole front end of the beast, 2 they often don’t leave a distinct blood trail, so if your deer goes for a post mortem jog into the thick stuff-you are in trouble!

The caveat to the above is if (as @Brave Echo Niner aludes to) you are really pushing them they can still blow up. My 6.5 is in the same area speed wise as his WSM and if you pin a roe close up, it’s a mess-no where near as bad as with fast frangible lead mind. My 308 is 130 TTSX at 3000fps and it is very well behaved.

What barrel length is on your .308?

 

[Heym SR20]

Centre of the triangle made with bottom of shoulder blade and elbow. Or more simply in line with foreleg and half way up. Deer drop on spot with minimal meat damage.

With a monolithic if you do go through shoulder blade meat damage is minimal.

If you use a soft cored bullet, either lead or zinc/tin, you get a lot of tiny fragments throughout the meat.

Monolithics stay in one piece, or shed a few large and easily removed petals. But petals are often big enough to have enough energy that they will exit - or put it like this, I have yet to find any bits of copper in any of the deer I have shot with monolithics.

 

[StephenToast]

I changed from lead to copper a few years back. Haven't changed the way I shoot or aim points etc and had no problems alomg the way. If anything they are an improvement.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I'm going to try Hornady Outfitter GMX next season to see what the fuss is about, but this statement in and of itself makes my toes curl. Essentially saying, they'll do the job, but they're not ideal.

When hunting, nothings a guarantee and accuracy can fall off if taking a rushed or unstable shot. Part of me would rather remain with a more forgiving load....just in case things go squirrelly and you pull a shot, or estimate range incorrectly etc.

I think they are changing to 'CX' which is meant to be an improvement on GMX

 

[Adyb]

I think they are changing to 'CX' which is meant to be an improvement on GMX

As far as I can see it's the same bullet with a better tip that improves bc a bit and doesn't melt/deform in flight, assume not much difference except at long ranges maybe.....?

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

I think they are changing to 'CX' which is meant to be an improvement on GMX

Interesting, can only get Hornady Outfitter with the GMX 165gr in .308 at the moment. I'd like a lighter bullet as everybody recommends going light for caliber but they are unavailable. I'd love to get my hands on some of that Yew Tree/Fox stuff but they are not stocked over here