Copper heavy or light?

[geoshot]

I've used the 130 grain CX in Hornady Outfitter factory ammo for my 6.5PRC with excellent results in terms of accuracy & terminal performance
But, my rifle has a 24.4 inch barrel and the PRC fires bullets at about 200fps faster than the Creedmoor everything being equal, so you might not find them to be quite so good
With a rifle such as you describe I'd be tempted to try the likes of the Barnes TTSX 100 grain or something like that, as others have already suggested

 

[Heym SR20]

Yep you’ve guessed it they are shite

Yep, I tried them and they were. I don’t they are made anymore.

 

[BigT]

Most copper bullets need to impact at 2200fps or higher to perform decently. They may advertise that they expand at 1800fps or whatever but generally that expansion is little more than light deformation not proper expansion.

And they generally don’t lose mass like lead so will out penetrate lead bullets a weight class or two up

Sub 300yards the higher velocity of the lighter bullet will generally more than make up for the BC loss. So for European stalking in general I lean towards light for calibre going as fast as possible when it comes to copper.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Yep, I tried them and they were. I don’t they are made anymore.

Bloody goo job, between the SST acting like a hand grenade and the GMX acting like a knitting needle, I’ve not used a hornady bullet since and that was a bloody long time ago

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I would go back to flint arrow heads before i used a Hornady copper bullet again

The 120gr CX have been good for me - mainly roe and munty but a few fallow. ECX with the flatter meplat get good reviews but are more pricey so I see no reason to pay more.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Not as suited to Creedmoor I think the longer bullets stabilise better on the 1/8 I have also bought CX

Possibly, I haven't compared overall length. Certainly try Nosler E Tips too.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Possibly, I haven't compared overall length. Certainly try Nosler E Tips too.

Another one on the shite pile

 

[Rutland lad]

I’ll throw my twopennorth into the mix.

6.5x55, 51cm barrel, using RS60 powder and a Fox Classic Hunter in 123 grain.

Chrono’d at 2800 fps. Zero at 150 metres, bullet drop (real world)

10cm low at 200m
27cm low at 250m
32cm low at 300m

All that adds up to under 1 MOA groups and dead deer.

Could go heavier, could go lighter. I actually think that’s the sweet spot for my stalking so I’ll stick with it.

 

[moeggesit]

As heavy as your rifle will stabilise, approximately 78% of the weight of lead if you were shooting maximum weight.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

As heavy as your rifle will stabilise, approximately 78% of the weight of lead if you were shooting maximum weight.

I’ve never taken any notice of all that tripe, pick a bullet find a recipe that works and kill deer

You lot are thinking too much

I was informed by a guy that 150 grain copper bullets wouldn’t stabilise in my 7 x 57 with an 18 inch barrel easiest £100 I’ve ever earn

 

[moeggesit]

I’ve never taken any notice of all that tripe, pick a bullet find a recipe that works and kill deer

You lot are thinking too much

I was informed by a guy that 150 grain copper bullets wouldn’t stabilise in my 7 x 57 with an 18 inch barrel easiest £100 I’ve ever earn

Looks like you’re doing exactly what I said, happy to be in agreement.

 

[Zephyrjim]

I think it really depends on

1) design of bullet

2) cartridge being used

3) expected range you will be shooting at

4) your preferred shot placement

5) and the type of deer. A big red stag weighing over 200kg live weight is very different to tiny little CWD weighing 30kg.

A monolithic kills by a combination of

a) the bullet expanding into a flower shaped saw rotating at high speed and cutting a direct wound channel through the carcass. In effect take a 1/2” to 1” diameter hole saw and cut a hole through the carcass. Death will be to the major arteries and nerves cut during this process. The bullet simply needs enough energy to take it through the animal.

At one extreme you have the likes of 8.6 Blackout shooting a 250 grain plus monolithic bullet at just below speed of sound, but with a very fast twist rate on 1 turn in 3” it stabilises with a very fast twist rate so it hits large amount of rotational energy, although actual kinetic energy from its velocity is very modest. Yet they have been used to take very large game such as bison and Elk.

At the other end I have used 243 80gn Fox launched at 3100 fps. And I have had these go straight through Roe and Red with no issues.

b) Temporary wound cavity - this is the shock wave created as the pushes fluids to one side as it goes through the animal. From spending a lot of time in boats over my life - a sleek long thin boat such as a rowing 8 produces very little wake (equivalent of an arrow). But bullets once they hit an animal actually become a square or blunt ended boat. A larger stubby will produce a big wake but with lower velocity, a smaller boat going faster will produce a sharper, faster and in many ways more destructive wake.

When I compare the 6mm 80gn Fox bullet out of my 243 with MV of 3100, against a 7mm 130gn Fox out of my 7x57 with a MV of 2800 I have noticed the following over tens of deer I have shot with both.

The 7x57 tends to punch a nice clean hole. Deer, both Roe and Red, are polaxed on the spot abd then kick for several moments. There is a 1” sized hole but then minimal carcass and meat damage.

With the 243, I have one or two run a wee bit before collapsing and kicking. There is a smaller hole, but a lot more bruising and blood shot meat around the bullet path and especially in the offside shoulder.

Which do I prefer - I think the 7x57, but the 243 is flatter shooting so more precise.

I have also shot several Roe with a little 51gn Copper bullet. Everything again has dropped on the spot. And judging by the way they penetrate I would happily shoot bigger deer if legal to do so.

The drop down in bullet weight and get velocity up probably stems from the need to have enough rotational spin to stabilize the bullet. So take the Fox bullets above - they are the same sort of lengths as the next bullet weights up - ie 80gn Fox is same sort of length as typical flat based 100gn lead core. If I used a pointed 100gn copper bullet in the 243 with standard 1 in 10” twist it probably wouldn’t stabilise.

I used to use 100gn RWS Softpoints in 243 and 140gn Softpoints in the 7x57 and 7x65R. I used to get quite a few running deer that would go 30 / 40 yards if not more. And on more than one occasion with the 243 the bullet blew up on the nearside shoulder with only minimal penetration into the vitals. Admittedly that was down to shot placement.

For the last six years I have been shooting copper bullets, and my experience is that they much better game takers than older cup and core, and given lack of fragmentation you can put them further forward thus taking out the nerves and major arteries in the chest cavity. The only downside of using the copper bullets is for the hound - she rarely gets a difficult to find shot deer.

5) and the type of deer. A big red stag weighing over 200kg live weight is very different to tiny little CWD weighing 30kg.

wow, 30kg for a little 'un. how heavy are the big CWD

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I think it really depends on

1) design of bullet

2) cartridge being used

3) expected range you will be shooting at

4) your preferred shot placement

5) and the type of deer. A big red stag weighing over 200kg live weight is very different to tiny little CWD weighing 30kg.

A monolithic kills by a combination of

a) the bullet expanding into a flower shaped saw rotating at high speed and cutting a direct wound channel through the carcass. In effect take a 1/2” to 1” diameter hole saw and cut a hole through the carcass. Death will be to the major arteries and nerves cut during this process. The bullet simply needs enough energy to take it through the animal.

At one extreme you have the likes of 8.6 Blackout shooting a 250 grain plus monolithic bullet at just below speed of sound, but with a very fast twist rate on 1 turn in 3” it stabilises with a very fast twist rate so it hits large amount of rotational energy, although actual kinetic energy from its velocity is very modest. Yet they have been used to take very large game such as bison and Elk.

At the other end I have used 243 80gn Fox launched at 3100 fps. And I have had these go straight through Roe and Red with no issues.

b) Temporary wound cavity - this is the shock wave created as the pushes fluids to one side as it goes through the animal. From spending a lot of time in boats over my life - a sleek long thin boat such as a rowing 8 produces very little wake (equivalent of an arrow). But bullets once they hit an animal actually become a square or blunt ended boat. A larger stubby will produce a big wake but with lower velocity, a smaller boat going faster will produce a sharper, faster and in many ways more destructive wake.

When I compare the 6mm 80gn Fox bullet out of my 243 with MV of 3100, against a 7mm 130gn Fox out of my 7x57 with a MV of 2800 I have noticed the following over tens of deer I have shot with both.

The 7x57 tends to punch a nice clean hole. Deer, both Roe and Red, are polaxed on the spot abd then kick for several moments. There is a 1” sized hole but then minimal carcass and meat damage.

With the 243, I have one or two run a wee bit before collapsing and kicking. There is a smaller hole, but a lot more bruising and blood shot meat around the bullet path and especially in the offside shoulder.

Which do I prefer - I think the 7x57, but the 243 is flatter shooting so more precise.

I have also shot several Roe with a little 51gn Copper bullet. Everything again has dropped on the spot. And judging by the way they penetrate I would happily shoot bigger deer if legal to do so.

The drop down in bullet weight and get velocity up probably stems from the need to have enough rotational spin to stabilize the bullet. So take the Fox bullets above - they are the same sort of lengths as the next bullet weights up - ie 80gn Fox is same sort of length as typical flat based 100gn lead core. If I used a pointed 100gn copper bullet in the 243 with standard 1 in 10” twist it probably wouldn’t stabilise.

I used to use 100gn RWS Softpoints in 243 and 140gn Softpoints in the 7x57 and 7x65R. I used to get quite a few running deer that would go 30 / 40 yards if not more. And on more than one occasion with the 243 the bullet blew up on the nearside shoulder with only minimal penetration into the vitals. Admittedly that was down to shot placement.

For the last six years I have been shooting copper bullets, and my experience is that they much better game takers than older cup and core, and given lack of fragmentation you can put them further forward thus taking out the nerves and major arteries in the chest cavity. The only downside of using the copper bullets is for the hound - she rarely gets a difficult to find shot deer.

Right let’s cut the this is all too much completely unnecessary, talk about making hard work out of something simple

Pick a projectile that tickles you fancy, buy 100 load them up if you roll your own or or just go in zero if you buy factory, and shoot deer!

It will take you 100 rounds of a chosen projectile to decide accurately and fairly if it does what you want it to do!

I have personally shot in my rifles over the years 100 projectiles of lead and copper tof all shapes and sizes to find out what suits me best, except the SST and GMX I ****ed those off quick sharp!

And before someone pipes up about cost, I was loading copper almost 20 years ago at £1.50/bang so dont go there!

It took me a long long time to find 2 projectiles that I am finally happy with.

 

[4616Oxon]

I think it really depends on

1) design of bullet

2) cartridge being used

3) expected range you will be shooting at

4) your preferred shot placement

5) and the type of deer. A big red stag weighing over 200kg live weight is very different to tiny little CWD weighing 30kg.

A monolithic kills by a combination of

a) the bullet expanding into a flower shaped saw rotating at high speed and cutting a direct wound channel through the carcass. In effect take a 1/2” to 1” diameter hole saw and cut a hole through the carcass. Death will be to the major arteries and nerves cut during this process. The bullet simply needs enough energy to take it through the animal.

At one extreme you have the likes of 8.6 Blackout shooting a 250 grain plus monolithic bullet at just below speed of sound, but with a very fast twist rate on 1 turn in 3” it stabilises with a very fast twist rate so it hits large amount of rotational energy, although actual kinetic energy from its velocity is very modest. Yet they have been used to take very large game such as bison and Elk.

At the other end I have used 243 80gn Fox launched at 3100 fps. And I have had these go straight through Roe and Red with no issues.

b) Temporary wound cavity - this is the shock wave created as the pushes fluids to one side as it goes through the animal. From spending a lot of time in boats over my life - a sleek long thin boat such as a rowing 8 produces very little wake (equivalent of an arrow). But bullets once they hit an animal actually become a square or blunt ended boat. A larger stubby will produce a big wake but with lower velocity, a smaller boat going faster will produce a sharper, faster and in many ways more destructive wake.

When I compare the 6mm 80gn Fox bullet out of my 243 with MV of 3100, against a 7mm 130gn Fox out of my 7x57 with a MV of 2800 I have noticed the following over tens of deer I have shot with both.

The 7x57 tends to punch a nice clean hole. Deer, both Roe and Red, are polaxed on the spot abd then kick for several moments. There is a 1” sized hole but then minimal carcass and meat damage.

With the 243, I have one or two run a wee bit before collapsing and kicking. There is a smaller hole, but a lot more bruising and blood shot meat around the bullet path and especially in the offside shoulder.

Which do I prefer - I think the 7x57, but the 243 is flatter shooting so more precise.

I have also shot several Roe with a little 51gn Copper bullet. Everything again has dropped on the spot. And judging by the way they penetrate I would happily shoot bigger deer if legal to do so.

The drop down in bullet weight and get velocity up probably stems from the need to have enough rotational spin to stabilize the bullet. So take the Fox bullets above - they are the same sort of lengths as the next bullet weights up - ie 80gn Fox is same sort of length as typical flat based 100gn lead core. If I used a pointed 100gn copper bullet in the 243 with standard 1 in 10” twist it probably wouldn’t stabilise.

I used to use 100gn RWS Softpoints in 243 and 140gn Softpoints in the 7x57 and 7x65R. I used to get quite a few running deer that would go 30 / 40 yards if not more. And on more than one occasion with the 243 the bullet blew up on the nearside shoulder with only minimal penetration into the vitals. Admittedly that was down to shot placement.

For the last six years I have been shooting copper bullets, and my experience is that they much better game takers than older cup and core, and given lack of fragmentation you can put them further forward thus taking out the nerves and major arteries in the chest cavity. The only downside of using the copper bullets is for the hound - she rarely gets a difficult to find shot deer.

Much appreciated good deal of useful info there

 

[4616Oxon]

Most copper bullets need to impact at 2200fps or higher to perform decently. They may advertise that they expand at 1800fps or whatever but generally that expansion is little more than light deformation not proper expansion.

And they generally don’t lose mass like lead so will out penetrate lead bullets a weight class or two up

Sub 300yards the higher velocity of the lighter bullet will generally more than make up for the BC loss. So for European stalking in general I lean towards light for calibre going as fast as possible when it comes to copper.

That’s was my thought as well.

 

[4616Oxon]

Right let’s cut the this is all too much completely unnecessary, talk about making hard work out of something simple

Pick a projectile that tickles you fancy, buy 100 load them up if you roll your own or or just go in zero if you buy factory, and shoot deer!

It will take you 100 rounds of a chosen projectile to decide accurately and fairly if it does what you want it to do!

I have personally shot in my rifles over the years 100 projectiles of lead and copper tof all shapes and sizes to find out what suits me best, except the SST and GMX I ****ed those off quick sharp!

And before someone pipes up about cost, I was loading copper almost 20 years ago at £1.50/bang so dont go there!

It took me a long long time to find 2 projectiles that I am finally happy with.

Agree to a point. But there is no harm in trying to learn your craft to the best of your ability. There is a use in understanding what is best and the rifle system you use by wlimanting uncertainty and increasing understanding of how projectiles work. Yes any bullet will work, but there is no harm in greater understanding and skill.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Agree to a point. But there is no harm in trying to learn your craft to the best of your ability. There is a use in understanding what is best and the rifle system you use by wlimanting uncertainty and increasing understanding of how projectiles work. Yes any bullet will work, but there is no harm in greater understanding and skill.

Exactly what I’m saying, pick a bullet and use it if it’s not right pick another and keep going until you find the holy grail

 

[25 Sharps]

E=MV2
Lighter to go faster to maintain energy on impact - I believe is the key but happy to be educated otherwise.

Yes and no, lower mass generally means lower ballistic coefficient so the bullet will lose that velocity more quickly, and therefore energy but importantly for copper, the ability to expand properly.

 

[Karhumies]

It depends, mostly light, but 180gr fox classic hunter in 30-06 is hard to argue with for moose and roe alike

 

[wilbert]

I've been using factory 120gr Sako powerhead blades in my .270 for 18 months or so as I went down the light for calibre route after quite a bit of reading / listening / YouTube etc . Been happy with them so far at ranges of 40m up to 270m. Started re loading a few months ago and have now settled on powder load and seating depth etc. They are slightly faster than the factory ammo by approx. 75fps with a 10 shot average of 3033.1 fps. Only got half a dozen factory loads left and I am looking forward to the first deer with a home load.