Copper hunting bullets

[MarkH]

Hi Thar

The thing is I shoot also in Europe and Africa so a want a bullet that leaves an exit wound for tracking without blowing half the chest wall out. In my book you cant have overpenetration just a straight wound channel with minimal meat damage.
Barnes and KJG operate in a similar fashion when they hit the animal in that they rapidly expand, the petals shear off within 6cm and cause secondary wound channels and then the bullet returns to just slightly larger than calibre and becomes a very stable flat nose solid.
The sectional density argument falls apart when the bullet hits soft tissue because of the increased frontal area created by the lead mushroom which has a breaking effect on the penetration therfore requiring more lead behind it to keep it going. As the sectional dentisity only slightly reduces when a copper bullet hits the animal you can shoot a lighter faster and flatter bullet. At the end of the day most missplaced shots are due to poor range estimation not sub MOA groups etc so the flatter the flight path the less hold over/under you need to give a beast in the mixed hunting situation
In 308 I use 123gn bullets and in 375 H+H 155gn
Lutz has a big article in English that I have linked to below
http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/Englisch/Copperhuntbullet.htm

Mark

 

[Thar]

Hi Thar

The thing is I shoot also in Europe and Africa so a want a bullet that leaves an exit wound for tracking without blowing half the chest wall out. In my book you cant have overpenetration just a straight wound channel with minimal meat damage.

Africa game need to be put in there own class and can I concede that the use of a solid or a bullet that give excellent penetration above everything else may be needed. But for Europe and the UK I am not convinced. Your boar example is a poor one, I think you just clipped the spine and should look to your self for the solution and not for some magic bullet, sorry if that sounds a bit harsh.

Barnes and KJG operate in a similar fashion when they hit the animal in that they rapidly expand, the petals shear off within 6cm and cause secondary wound channels and then the bullet returns to just slightly larger than calibre and becomes a very stable flat nose solid..

The petals shearing off and causing sub wound channels surely causes more meat damage that one single but well expanded bullet. I would also have concerns about biting into one of these razor sharp metal fragments while tucking into a nice piece of fillet. A chap I know runs a company supplying Venison to some big restaurants he has had to offer compensation in the past because one of the restaurant customers bit into a steak and she found a piece of copper bullet jacket in it

It would seem that your Solid copper bullet behaves very similar to a normal core-bonded bullet were the base of the bullet is designed to stay as a complete mass.

The sectional density argument falls apart when the bullet hits soft tissue because of the increased frontal area created by the lead mushroom which has a breaking effect on the penetration therfore requiring more lead behind it to keep it going.

That is why you use a heavier for calibre bullet for bigger game, so there is more moment behind the expanded front of the bullet to force it though the animal.

As the sectional dentisity only slightly reduces when a copper bullet hits the animal you can shoot a lighter faster and flatter bullet.

You can’t have it both ways with your copper bullet Mark, either it stays in one piece so keeps it sectional density or the petals shear off leaving you a smaller sub projectile of less weight to penetrate though the off shoulder.

Seeing that most game is shot under 200 yrds how much less drop does you’re fast moving copper bullets have? Above 200yrds use a range finder and drop charts, then drop becomes immaterial.

At the end of the day most missplaced shots are due to poor range estimation not sub MOA groups etc so the flatter the flight path the less hold over/under you need to give a beast in the mixed hunting situation

The incorrect range estimation should not be a problem it once was with more and more serious hunters carrying laser range finders. I zero my 270 at 200yrds it is 11/2” high at 100yrds and 11/2” low at 250yrds so any thing between 50 and 250yrds just aim 1/3 up and you have a heart shot. Over that it is the rangefinder and try and get closer if possible.

Sorry Mark you may be convinced you have found the magic silver bullet but you will have to try harder with me.

Thar

 

[MarkH]

Thar

There is little point me trying to give another point of view when every observation is put down. Since you have no personal experience of these bullets your argument is hypothetical.

If you shoot enough game you see bullets do strange things. If I wound an animal or miss it I have a duty to analyse why, find the probable cause and correct it. Either more shooting practice or changing some aspect of the equipment I use. Spineing the boar by poor shot placement is a definite possibility but in my limited experience if you crease an animal with a very hairy back you get hair on the ground - case closed no hair, v little blood. Not so here. I suspect the bullet mushroomed, deviated hit the spine with insufficient penetration to fracture it.

I would not post this information if I thought there was no advantage being aware of it to the members of this forum.

I have shot these bullets in the field and spent time comparing the results. I was impressed and I have shot most calibres and most bullets both as a civi and in the military.

Again I am not asking anyone to change bullet just showing the forum that there are other products out there to try.

The lead ban is coming so get used to the idea, I did not invent it but I have to acknowledge it.

Mark

 

[sikamalc]

It has been interesting to read this thread, copper versus lead.

I am not a ballistic expert, I load my own, and have always used expanding lead heads, speer or nosler. What I will add is that the only time i have had clients using solid copper heads, was about 18 years ago, when a group of American clients brought over BarnesX bullets. We had trouble from the start on that trip. The rounds were going straight through Red Stags, and leaving no blood or hair trail. We did find both animals the next day, but on examining the carcase in the larder the exit wound was tiny and there was almost zero expansion. Although I am sure copper bullets have moved on in their design since those days.

This also happened to a stalker I know on Rhum, some years ago they insisted he used copper, he had similar problems to me, and rang me as he also worked on a neighbouring estate to my lease at the time. I believe they are still using lead, but as I have not spoken to him for at least 3 years, I would not be sure.

The only time I have used solid copper bullets is on Elephant and Buffalo. It is true that in Africa everything has the greatest of tanacity for life, and even Impala are capable of taking an enornmous amount of punishment, and I know Barnes X and similar copper rounds have prooved very succesful.

Mark H is right in that sooner rather than later they will bring in a lead ban, although personally I hope it will not be for a few years yet.

 

[Thar]

Thar

There is little point me trying to give another point of view when every observation is put down. Mark

Mark H

We are having a reasoned discussion to the merits or other wise of using copper bullets. I am unconvinced that they have any advantage over at normal lead bullet. So when I point out deficiencies in your argument they are not meant to be taken as personal insults but are reasons why I find your arguments unconvincing.

I am well aware that bullets can do unusual things when hunting animals may because I have shot enough animals. But in your first post you say that the 174gn bullet hit the boar on the shoulder at 50yrds but did not have enough power to break the shoulder and the bullet deflected up and hit the spine, again it was not able to break the spine.

I point out that IMHO at 174gn bullet hitting a boar on the shoulder at 50yrds even with a soft bullet would break the shoulder and you would have a dead piggy. The reaction to the shot as you describe it are classic example of a animal being shot above the spine. The animal drops on the spot and then recovers and runs off with out being found. You would find little blood on the floor for a couple of reason one there are no major arteries above the spine and two any blood from the wound would have to run down the animals flanks before it got to the ground. Remember in some parts of the world boar are hunted successfully with 44 magnum pistol rounds in a lever action rifle, a big soft bullet going even slower than your 30cal 174gn rifle bullet.

I do not doubt you post in good faith and believe in your bullets, I have given the counter argument to yours the forum members can now make there own choice. I have some issues that I have not yet raised but will let thing lie as I seemed to upset you and this was not my intention.

I agree rightly or wrongly lead bullets may well be banned in the future whether we will have a new generation of copper jacketed matrix cored bullets or solid copper remains to be seen.

All the best.

Thar

 

[325wsm]

The 'no lead' aspect is something that is happening on both sides of the Atlantic.
Winchester and Nosler have teamed up to produce a new, environmentally friendly bullet - the e-Tip.
A solid bullet with a deep hollow point filled with a nylon insert made of 95% copper and 5% zinc to remove (to a greater extent) the fouling problems associated with copper bullets.

They are using the same gilding metal copper alloy as on the Accubond (alloy 210) making it harder than a solid copper bullet but with the added lubricant of the zinc. It seems to be an excellent innovation and I am sure we will be hearing much more of it in the months and years to come.

 

[MarkH]

Hi

Here is some more info on another main stream banded copper bullet manufacturer.


http://www.gsgroup.co.za/02hv.html

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/meat.html

Just got my new 458 gn copper bullets 356 gns with a BC of .367. Sweet 8) 8)

Mark

 

[MarkH]

Just for a laugh here is one of my 458 bullets next to a 55gn 243 ballistic tip. Both quite good on fox's I think

Mark

 

[techman]

A word of warning.
The NRA have banned the use of Solid copper or bronze bullets on their ranges due to 'Bullets exiting the stop butt in unpredictable directions. with a distinct possibility of ricochet that differ markedly from conventional amunition'
There is no mention as to whether these were solids or expanding but this may give cause for concern in the field.
NRA website, key in 'Copper bullets' in the Search box.

 

[MarkH]

A little dickie bird told me what and to whom this incident happened .

A certain target shooter was winning an important competition using copper bullets. Later some used copper bullets were found lying in a car-park near the butts but in the safety zone. The terminal position of the bullets in relation to the target is virtually impossible. There are rumours of competative sabotage by dropping used rounds retrieved from the butts in the car-park knowing that the NRA will have to suspend their use until investigated by Warminster.
There have been no other reports I know of about ricochet or penetrating through butt stops especially in regards to Barnes Bullets( market leader) in the States
Ho Hum
Mark

 

[techman]

Hi Mark,
What a devious load of Sh--ooters these target boys can be.
There was I thinking it was just the NRA climbing on their high horses!
Perish the thought.

 

[Pete E]

Deleted by User

 

[MarkH]

Hi Pete

Hope your father in law is recovering. I have all my section 5 sent to the local gun shop about 10 mins away for simplicity.
At low velocities they expand and at high they fragment similar to Barnes TSX etc. and I presume nobody has a problem with using them as hunting bullets. These are just engineered to a higher level.
Usually the bullets arrive in 3-4 working days.

Regards

Mark

 

[Pete E]

Deleted by User

 

[Ronin]

Mark

a very interesting subject indeed, apologies for entering the debate late, I have only just stumbled onto this site.

Iv'e used Barnes Triple x for a while in a 6.5mm that I had a bad experience with on a Red Stag last year (the SST blew up) and have been intending to contact Lutz for a while as these lathe turned beasts are just what I need for an impending arrival of a larger calibre that also drives bullets quite fast.

Could you advise if there are any published BC's of LM products and could you say from experience how close in reality the BC values are to actual results.

 

[MarkH]

Hi RM

I cannot verify the BC from field experience accuratly but the drop from 70m to 200m follows the load data close enough for long range hunting.
What rifle do you intend to use?
Because of the splintering action and toughness of the copper combined with low friction Lutz's bullets end up approx 30% lighter for caliber than std lead copper. I just loaded up 43 rds of 308 123gn bullet with a MV of 3100 on 42.4gns of reloader 7. fantastic bullet very clean kills even when hitting large bones

Here is a drop chart based on the bullet shooting 5cm high@100 ie zero @40 and 210m. Not bad for a meduim caliber like a 308

Mark

 

[Ronin]

Thanks Mark, yes for a light 30 cal bullet (123g) the figures are impressive.

I have 6.5x284, a 7mm magnum on the way, also 308 and an impending 338Lap Mag, I had a look at Lutz Moeller site (the english version) and found that there are BC figures against bullet calibre - the heavy 338's are .9, which is way better than anything commercially available.

Expense aside, if one is using these as an exclusive deer bullet, the cost is no more than factory ammunition (well with a little artistic licence)

I for one have experienced "blow ups" with a few calibres and have moved over to Barnes as I no longer trust the SP that are "game specific", what I have found with the Barnes is very good accuracy and reliable expansion (clean kill) - with similar if not equal accuracy as match bullets in fact.

The Moeller, products were next on my list to try as they do look to be a better quality bullet (not that the deer will know the difference)

 

[MarkH]

The deer can't tell but the rifle can

Mark

 

[MarkH]

I just took some pics with my macro lens of a banded copper bullet. What is shows is how little of the copper touches the rifling in the barrel compared to the standard bullet (Hornady interbond - my next favourite bullet)

So what! I hear you say/type

Well - there is much less friction developed by the bullet passing down the barrel and therefore more even breach pressures and less friction developed, there is also much less copper fouling. Therefore less powder sends the bullet down the barrel faster giving a flatter more consistent trajectory (42 gns of RL7 = 3150ft/s for a 308 KJG bullet)
Once the bullet hits the animal these large copper petals fragment off but due to their large size dont travel more than 10 cm within the chest. the remaining shank of the bullet shoulder stabilises and continues through the animal with very little deviation from path. Works well in theory and in practice.

Mark

 

[Alycidon]

Those large bullets look like something used to sink the Bismark. I would not want to fire to many of those in a day but you would never forget it for sure.

A