Deeply Deeply Sad

[Highlandsjohn]

Still reading this thread, as far as post 68 so a few random musings.

I would observe that If my Democracy and Sovereignty had not been given away, I would not have been forced to vote to try to recover it.

Was it not John Major who on election promised to keep Britain "at the very heart of Europe" and claimed to have won "game set and match for Britain" ? ?

A lot of people country wide don't seem to like democracy in action as happening now?
The fact that lies were told by both sides is historic and just one instrument of control that Establishment figures use to instill fear in the population to maintain their grip?

Media coverage has, as usual been divisive in the extreme due to their self interest?

Not wishing to comment on the behaviour of some people, maybe just a sign of the lack of discipline evident in recent progressive upbringing?

Common sense right there

 

[african jack]

What about the people that did not vote for the elected government do they keep asking for another election till they get the government they want NO

You think it was democracy?
Personally I think it made a mockery of our whole parliamentary system.
We elect a government - that's democracy. The government then has a duty to do what it believes is best for the country as a whole. They have civil servants and secretaries and whatnot running about for them to gather all the information required to make a reasonable judgement. The average voter in the street doesn't have ready access to this data, nor the time or inclination to seek it out, nor the expertise to analyse it. This is why so many people based their votes on emotional claptrap, rather than on the socio-economic consequences of the possible outcome.

But hey! Maybe this is the new way of doing things? More power to the people.... We could have a free vote on all sorts of things! How about firearms ownership, for a start? Should UK citizens be allowed to own firearms, yes or no? I'm sure it would be easy enough to arrange - just wait until after the next terrorist outrage, or the next gun-related violent crime, when the public are all up in arms about it (if you'll pardon the pun). Some up-and-coming young politician could be persuaded to raise the issue, the media would get behind it and the people would love it. In a very short while they'd be demanding a vote on it, and then hey presto! That would probably be the end of sporting shooting in the UK.
Of course, most members of this forum would be quite happy with the result, because it would be democracy in action. However, I prefer the system whereby our democratically elected government weighs up the evidence and then decides that we should be able to continue to own firearms for sporting purposes, subject to certain rules.

 

[Taff]

For some people, democracy only works if it's what they vote for.

 

[VSS]

What about the people that did not vote for the elected government do they keep asking for another election till they get the government they want NO

No need - they get another chance in a few years anyway.

 

[old man]

You think it was democracy?
Personally I think it made a mockery of our whole parliamentary system.
We elect a government - that's democracy. The government then has a duty to do what it believes is best for the country as a whole. They have civil servants and secretaries and whatnot running about for them to gather all the information required to make a reasonable judgement. The average voter in the street doesn't have ready access to this data, nor the time or inclination to seek it out, nor the expertise to analyse it. This is why so many people based their votes on emotional claptrap, rather than on the socio-economic consequences of the possible outcome.


But hey! Maybe this is the new way of doing things? More power to the people.... We could have a free vote on all sorts of things! How about firearms ownership, for a start? Should UK citizens be allowed to own firearms, yes or no? I'm sure it would be easy enough to arrange - just wait until after the next terrorist outrage, or the next gun-related violent crime, when the public are all up in arms about it (if you'll pardon the pun). Some up-and-coming young politician could be persuaded to raise the issue, the media would get behind it and the people would love it. In a very short while they'd be demanding a vote on it, and then hey presto! That would probably be the end of sporting shooting in the UK.
Of course, most members of this forum would be quite happy with the result, because it would be democracy in action. However, I prefer the system whereby our democratically elected government weighs up the evidence and then decides that we should be able to continue to own firearms for sporting purposes, subject to certain rules.

I do.

Is it not a system where power is held by elected representitives on behalf of the people until such time as the power is removed from them in by a greater number of votes expressing more displeasure than pleasure at their performance?

Why on earth mention firearms?

It would indeed be desirable for an elected government to weigh up and carry out the wishes of the electorate but that does not seem to be how it works?
Lobbying in secret behind the scenes distorts situations for the benefit of a few, you seem to think the information gathering is open and honest, sadly, probably not??

I agree that unfortunately in this instance we may have been forced to choose between democracy and a cosy/safer ride as part of an un-elected super state but hey ho, there you go? I made my choice and will live with it.

Surely this is all about the will of the people to decide the future exercising their right to vote?
Why we were given this opportunity is a matter for conjecture?

Historically we have always had an independence of spirit, long may this continue?

 

[JAYB]

Gents just a word of warning, I have already closed two threads this morning, both related to Brexit, because they strayed too close to the dark side, can we please keep this one on the straight and narrow, otherwise it will be a hat trick.

John

 

[VSS]

I do.

Is it not a system where power is held by elected representitives on behalf of the people until such time as the power is removed from them in by a greater number of votes expressing more displeasure than pleasure at their performance?

Why on earth mention firearms?

It would indeed be desirable for an elected government to weigh up and carry out the wishes of the electorate but that does not seem to be how it works?
Lobbying in secret behind the scenes distorts situations for the benefit of a few, you seem to think the information gathering is open and honest, sadly, probably not??

I agree that unfortunately in this instance we may have been forced to choose between democracy and a cosy/safer ride as part of an un-elected super state but hey ho, there you go? I made my choice and will live with it.

Surely this is all about the will of the people to decide the future exercising their right to vote?
Why we were given this opportunity is a matter for conjecture?

Historically we have always had an independence of spirit, long may this continue?

You make valid points old man, from either side of the debate, and I won't argue.
I mentioned firearms as a contextual example - for those on here who seem to be saying that whatever the majority demand they should be given - that the popular vote doesn't always give the most desirable result, particularly when emotion influences people's views. This is what I fear has happened in the referendum.

I voted as I did for three reasons, and remain unchanged in my opinion :
1) I believe that EU membership has been used as a scapegoat for home-bred problems. These problems won't be cured by leaving, and may in fact be harder to tackle.
2) My interests are purely rural, and I believe that it is this sector of our economy that will be hardest hit by the change.
3) For young people. Although I'm an old stick-in-the-mud the younger generation of my family (ie, my children and their cousins) are widely dispersed, speaking between them more than 6 different European languages. They trave regularly between countries to visit friends and relatives, and although as individuals they're each deeply patriotic about whichever country they were born in, collectively they see themselves as citizens of Europe. This situation must be replicated through many households in Britain and beyond.

But we are where we are, and will have to make the best of it, although I do not know what that best may be. What I do know is these divisive Brexit discussions are spoiling the atmosphere of the SD, so I'll say no more and hope the thread winds up fairly soon.

 

[Alantoo]

Will the remainers please tell me what bit of the principles of democracy they don't understand? The side with the most votes wins! If you can't accept that you are not a democrat. You can choose your method of government from one of the following: Dictatorship, Fascism, Socialism as practiced in China, North Korea, or Stalin's Russia. Whether you realise/accept it or not this is what you are advocating. No matter how thick you think the exiters were the principle of universal suffrage is that everybodies vote is of equal worth. Also those who don't vote don't count, you can't distribute these uncast votes as you see fit.

David.

I agree wholeheartedly with your definition of the principles of democracy. The side with the most votes wins. Unfortunately our first-past-the-post system has almost invariably ensured that the side that wins, had more votes cast against them than for.

Still reading this thread, as far as post 68 so a few random musings.

I would observe that If my Democracy and Sovereignty had not been given away, I would not have been forced to vote to try to recover it.

Was it not John Major who on election promised to keep Britain "at the very heart of Europe" and claimed to have won "game set and match for Britain" ? ?

A lot of people country wide don't seem to like democracy in action as happening now?
The fact that lies were told by both sides is historic and just one instrument of control that Establishment figures use to instill fear in the population to maintain their grip?

Media coverage has, as usual been divisive in the extreme due to their self interest?

Not wishing to comment on the behaviour of some people, maybe just a sign of the lack of discipline evident in recent progressive upbringing?

More people voted against John Major and his manifesto promise of further integration into Europe. The recent referendum is the one we should have had back then, before 24 years of entanglement.

All so true and down to the greedy 'me, me, me,' society that is now upon us. Is the recent result of Democracy now to be a thing of the past? Or will it indeed hold firm and provide the British population the proof of Democracy in action?

Lets hope it proves that the people will not accept the un-representational system which got us in the mess in the first place. And get some electoral reform so we all get a continued say in the direction the country takes.

What about the people that did not vote for the elected government do they keep asking for another election till they get the government they want NO

Yes I agree. What about that unrepresented majority of people who did not vote for any of the elected governments of the last few decades.

For some people, democracy only works if it's what they vote for.

I can only speak for myself but I think the recent referendum was democratic...and I did not vote with the majority.

One of the problems however with referenda is that the question on the ballot paper is not necessarily the one that needs to be answered. I don't see the exit referendum result as the end of the process, it is only the end of our membership of the EU. It is the start of where we want to go from here...when new trade deals are made I hope we get the opportunity to vote on whether we think they are in our interests, rather than the interests of the multi-nationals who will be doing the trading, or the bureaucrats and politicians who arrange them.

You make valid points old man, from either side of the debate, and I won't argue.
I mentioned firearms as a contextual example - for those on here who seem to be saying that whatever the majority demand they should be given - that the popular vote doesn't always give the most desirable result, particularly when emotion influences people's views. This is what I fear has happened in the referendum.

I voted as I did for three reasons, and remain unchanged in my opinion :

1) I believe that EU membership has been used as a scapegoat for home-bred problems. These problems won't be cured by leaving, and may in fact be harder to tackle.
2) My interests are purely rural, and I believe that it is this sector of our economy that will be hardest hit by the change.
3) For young people. Although I'm an old stick-in-the-mud the younger generation of my family (ie, my children and their cousins) are widely dispersed, speaking between them more than 6 different European languages. They trave regularly between countries to visit friends and relatives, and although as individuals they're each deeply patriotic about whichever country they were born in, collectively they see themselves as citizens of Europe. This situation must be replicated through many households in Britain and beyond.

But we are where we are, and will have to make the best of it, although I do not know what that best may be. What I do know is these divisive Brexit discussions are spoiling the atmosphere of the SD, so I'll say no more and hope the thread winds up fairly soon.

The only point I disagree with you is whether to carry on debating the issues arising out of the referendum result, I hope we can do so without being divisive or spoiling the usual cooperative atmosphere of the SD.

I have more in common with any fellow stalker than I do with any politician.

Alan

 

[Kalahari]

Actually to all those that think a refernedum is not a legitimate way of leaving the EU it is the method used to go in. So if a referendum is not legitimate we never went in so we were always out! Think about it before you try and move the goalposts to suit yourself.

David.

 

[Alantoo]

Actually to all those that think a refernedum is not a legitimate way of leaving the EU it is the method used to go in. So if a referendum is not legitimate we never went in so we were always out! Think about it before you try and move the goalposts to suit yourself.

David.

??

I may be wrong, I am not a historian but the only referendum (I voted leave in) was in 1975 or '76 . That was regarding the EEC (common market) after we had been taken in by Ted Heath's government. We were already in the common market and that referendum also gave people the opportunity to vote leave.

We did not actually have a referendum to take us in.

As your comment follows my earlier one, and in case it is in response to it...may I point out that I stated I thought the recent referendum equally democratic and am not trying to move any goalposts.

Alan

 

[Alantoo]

Referendum 1973.

David.

As my memory serves (and google's coincides) the 1973 referendum was Northern Ireland only and regarded staying in the UK or uniting the island.

We joined the EC on 1. January 1973

The only EC referendum was in 1975, was UK wide and gave us the opportunity to vote out after we had been taken in.

While checking Google for 1973 referendum I found an interesting overview by Adrian Williamson QC on the machinations going on as to why the Conservative party became the Europhiles and why Harold Wilson's government offered the 1975 referendum, (knowing the outcome but using it as a way to boost and unite his party)...

The case for Brexit: lessons from the 1960s and 1970s | History and Policy

Alan

 

[deerpath]

I hate the fact that we are apparently 52 in 48 out. I wish it was a bigger divide. And Scotland is so far out of kilter with the average. 60 : 40 Typical.!
The Orangemen may hate me for saying what I thought when my mates were dying, privately, in the 1970's. Give us the vote. Stop Imposing one vote covers all. Bad or Badder !
Nichola please give us the vote. That was Alex Salmond's downfall last time. Its simple. Please.
Lets have a real un- united vote. Including the whole of Ireland that used to be part of Ireland. Re-ceed you De Lorean lot you have cost too many of my mates lives.
We had reasonable PM.
Now we have the prospect of pinky lefty tomorrow May or Gormlous Gove. Unelected as were the lot we voted to not dominate us !
And what deal is Boris doing ?
Back to school for me - denied the right to spray roundup in knapsack sprayer around the farmyard even though I have spayed 1,000 of acres each year for for 40 years. EU rules !

 

[Kalahari]

As my memory serves (and google's coincides) the 1973 referendum was Northern Ireland only and regarded staying in the UK or uniting the island.

We joined the EC on 1. January 1973

The only EC referendum was in 1975, was UK wide and gave us the opportunity to vote out after we had been taken in.

While checking Google for 1973 referendum I found an interesting overview by Adrian Williamson QC on the machinations going on as to why the Conservative party became the Europhiles and why Harold Wilson's government offered the 1975 referendum, (knowing the outcome but using it as a way to boost and unite his party)...

The case for Brexit: lessons from the 1960s and 1970s | History and Policy

Alan

You are right. Getting the two confused. Sorry.

David.

 

[deerpath]

Which bit?
Roundup refused by them bosers

 

[49ERIC]

Really, well sorry but it doesn't and shouldn't work like that.
We had a referendum, we all had plenty of time to make our minds up before we voted.
Depending which way you voted your either 'won' or 'lost', now is the time to deal with it, or get used to it.
Another vote would neither be fair to those who have already voted, neither would it be democratic.

Neil.

WELL said NOW ITS Time TO PULL TOGETHER ONWARD

 

[enfieldspares]

Denied the right to spray roundup in knapsack sprayer around the farmyard even though I have spayed 1,000 of acres each year for for 40 years. EU rules !

And from the loosk of your avatar photograph it can be seen that it's done you no harm! Is them tusks or a pair of moustaches?

 

[McKenzie]

 

[Kalahari]

There was someone on BBC radio 4 this morning saying the moaning and wailing of the remainers was about as hysterical and reasonable as the outpouring of "national grief" over the death of the Princess of Wales!

David.

 

[Taff]

There was someone on BBC radio 4 this morning saying the moaning and wailing of the remainers was about as hysterical and reasonable as the outpouring of "national grief" over the death of the Princess of Wales!

David.

I have to agree with them I never understood how people could feel so attached and taken in by the hype around such a self serving publicist, as to the referendum having watched some of the interviews with some of the ins, it's Lucky we're out , but if it will make them feel better they can lay flowers and soft toys at the entrance to the channel tunnel.

 

[Highlandsjohn]

I have to agree with them I never understood how people could feel so attached and taken in by the hype around such a self serving publicist, as to the referendum having watched some of the interviews with some of the ins, it's Lucky we're out , but if it will make them feel better they can lay flowers and soft toys at the entrance to the channel tunnel.