Deer Cull in Epping Forest

[London Jaeger]

I was interested to see the below article pop up on my news feed -

Hundreds of Epping Forest deer may be killed to keep population at 'suitable' level

Deer in Epping Forest could be culled over the next five years to bring the numbers down to 150.

www.eppingforestguardian.co.uk

Apparently the Fallow have been left unmanaged by the City of London Cooperation and are now at a detrimentally high density.

Some may remember that a Hunting Club did previously hold the sporting rights, but this was revoked due to a animal rights and political backlash in 2016, which I link below -

Hunting axed in Epping Forest after outcry over 'disembowelled' deer

A controversial scheme allowing deer-hunting at Epping Forest has been axed after claims from critics that they saw animals being “disembowelled”.

www.standard.co.uk

It seems the CLC decided not to take matters into their own hands after all and have not carried any focused management of the deer. Paul Morris (an Epping Forest Verderer) who campaigned against the original hunting clubs contract, is holding his ground however and saying: “I am never going to be happy about culling deer, but I do understand that there is a level of management that has to go on.” He maintains that the abandoned contract for people to pay and hunt was “disgraceful”. Essentially hunting is ok as long as you are are miserable whilst doing it, which is an interesting new argument from the Animal Rights lot.

 

[Redleg]

There are numerous problems with this plan, the major one is public access.
To make a real impact on numbers they need to close part of the forest.The forest is littered with public footpaths & cycle tracks which means that preventing joe public from entering will be impossible during the culls.The capreolus club hardly made a dent in the deer population (Apart from shooting nearly all the master bucks) by shooting the surrounding land they need to shoot the forest.
A farm that we shoot on, rents a few hundred acres from the corporation and every year the farmer receives compensation for crop damage. Yet we aren't allowed to manage the deer, as only the corporation can do it.
Maybe they might change their mind and let us manage that land after the meeting in March who knows..

 

[nicowilson]

Agreed. Richmond Park has a similar challenge with public access yet is fenced/walled so the public can be excluded to allow the cull to take place. I believe there's a similar arrangement for the cull at the deer park near Windsor Castle.

 

[bullet chucker]

All the Royal parks are 'managed' in a similar way.Sign posted at entrance and exit,all pedestrian gates locked. Policed in some instances.
Prior' Notice of closure usually given?

BC.

 

[T.eddie]

I was interested to see the below article pop up on my news feed -

Hundreds of Epping Forest deer may be killed to keep population at 'suitable' level

Deer in Epping Forest could be culled over the next five years to bring the numbers down to 150.

www.eppingforestguardian.co.uk

Apparently the Fallow have been left unmanaged by the City of London Cooperation and are now at a detrimentally high density.

Some may remember that a Hunting Club did previously hold the sporting rights, but this was revoked due to a animal rights and political backlash in 2016, which I link below -

Hunting axed in Epping Forest after outcry over 'disembowelled' deer

A controversial scheme allowing deer-hunting at Epping Forest has been axed after claims from critics that they saw animals being “disembowelled”.

www.standard.co.uk

It seems the CLC decided not to take matters into their own hands after all and have not carried any focused management of the deer. Paul Morris (an Epping Forest Verderer) who campaigned against the original hunting clubs contract, is holding his ground however and saying: “I am never going to be happy about culling deer, but I do understand that there is a level of management that has to go on.” He maintains that the abandoned contract for people to pay and hunt was “disgraceful”. Essentially hunting is ok as long as you are are miserable whilst doing it, which is an interesting new argument from the Animal Rights lot.

does seem as though stalkers can never win in the eye of some. Once they see the sheer number of deer dying due to RTA or overcrowding/lack of resource and the carcass start to litter the forest and roads in whatever condition surely they will change their tune.

They need to understand that the actual killing is just a small part of it and there is so much more to what we try and do

 

[London Jaeger]

All the Royal parks are 'managed' in a similar way.Sign posted at entrance and exit,all pedestrian gates locked. Policed in some instances.
Prior' Notice of closure usually given?

BC.

Epping Forest isn't a Royal Park, it is 'The Peoples Forest'. It is a lot larger, unfenced/walled and 'wilder' (if that makes sense) than either Richmond or Bushy Park.

As a side note, I was intrested to find out that one has the right to collect fire wood from Epping Forest, though it is limited to "one faggot of dead or driftwood" per day per adult.

 

[Redleg]

Epping Forest isn't a Royal Park, it is 'The Peoples Forest'. It is a lot larger, unfenced/walled and 'wilder' (if that makes sense) than either Richmond or Bushy Park.

As a side note, I was intrested to find out that one has the right to collect fire wood from Epping Forest, though it is limited to "one faggot of dead or driftwood" per day per adult.

And no picking of mushrooms. Especially magic ones.

 

[Tom_Ov]

The 'beauty' of public bodies like the City of London Corporation is that documents are publically available. The recently presented deer strategy here and some interesting background here for those who are unaware of the history.

You have to have a bit of sympathy for CLC on this one - hoist on the pitchfork of public opinion for whatver they do and faced with finding an additional two full time roles plus 1260 staff hours to take the deer management in house.

For what it's worth, and I have some knowledge of the royal parks and of Epping Forest, they're not comparable. The challenge of managing the deer in Epping is similar to difficulties faced elsewhere in South East England - the National Trust Estate at Ashridge would be a good example and I believe that's been managed very successfully for the last few years.

 

[bullet chucker]

I am fully aware of the situation of your forest, I was indicating the way the Royal parks are handled, As nicowilson had mentioned Richmond park.

BC.

 

[User00025]

I wonder if The Guardian has f....d up again. Those deer look like Common Fallow, I was always told the Fallow in Epping were Melanistic (black). And the evening standard another "STAG".

 

[London Jaeger]

The 'beauty' of public bodies like the City of London Corporation is that documents are publically available. The recently presented deer strategy here and some interesting background here for those who are unaware of the history.

You have to have a bit of sympathy for CLC on this one - hoist on the pitchfork of public opinion for whatver they do and faced with finding an additional two full time roles plus 1260 staff hours to take the deer management in house.

For what it's worth, and I have some knowledge of the royal parks and of Epping Forest, they're not comparable. The challenge of managing the deer in Epping is similar to difficulties faced elsewhere in South East England - the National Trust Estate at Ashridge would be a good example and I believe that's been managed very successfully for the last few years.

The report makes an intresting point in -

Risk implications 38.
Reputational risk: Human-deer encounters are often valuable experiences and the public often feel a degree of “ownership” of wild deer. The large-scale population management of wild deer is set out in the 20-year framework which works to rigid professional standards. Management plans and publicity materials should make clear how the management of deer is integrated into wider objectives such as longterm habitat sustainability or protection of woodland birds and invertebrates.

Doomed if you cull them and doomed if you don't.

 

[Siggy]

I wonder if The Guardian has f....d up again. Those deer look like Common Fallow, I was always told the Fallow in Epping were Melanistic (black). And the evening standard another "STAG".

I think you are thinking of Hatfield forest up the road, which has a high proportion of melanistic deer. I can’t remember the historical reason, something to do with where the deer came from when it was a park...

 

[User00025]

I think you are thinking of Hatfield forest up the road, which has a high proportion of melanistic deer. I can’t remember the historical reason, something to do with where the deer came from when it was a park...

No it was from when I knew one of the "Keepers". Take a look at the Epping forest deer sanctuary.

 

[Tom_Ov]

No it was from when I knew one of the "Keepers". Take a look at the Epping forest deer sanctuary.

Yes, the report notes that in fact the deer in the sanctuary at Theydon Bois actually aren't genetically unique in any way, despite having been 'marketed' as being dark coloured or black.

 

[User00025]

Yes, the report notes that in fact the deer in the sanctuary at Theydon Bois actually aren't genetically unique in any way, despite having been 'marketed' as being dark coloured or black.

Most original deer forests in East Englandshire seem to have been populated by various kings with Melanistic fallow for some reason. Apparently Rockingham forest Northants were originally black deer, but there being a park or two in the area at some time gives a rainbow effect now.

 

[muddy42]

What a farce. This deer issue at Epping has been going on for about 20 years. I think the practicalities of shooting the deer could be overcome if the City of London could make their mind and bind the "Verderers" and everyone involved to one strategy, driven by animal welfare and ecology of trees etc above all else. If there is disagreement, a independent third party can be brought in to advise and create a management plan. But everyone must be bound to the outcome. I don't know how comprehensive the Deer Initiative's work was but it seem strange that there is still disagreement after this.

 

[Tom_Ov]

What a farce. This deer issue at Epping has been going on for about 20 years. I think the practicalities of shooting the deer could be overcome if the City of London could make their mind and bind the "Verderers" and everyone involved to one strategy, driven by animal welfare and ecology of trees etc above all else. If there is disagreement, a independent third party can be brought in to advise and create a management plan. But everyone must be bound to the outcome. I don't know how comprehensive the Deer Initiative's work was but it seem strange that there is still disagreement after this.

I agree, and tbf to CLC, I think that they are relatively close to the position that you outline above. Interesting to watch the debate at the meeting ( see here )- a good insight into how hard it is for public bodies (and membership orgs etc) to achieve consensus on issues like this when they've got a million and one 'stakeholders', many of whom are starting from a position of very little knowledge when it comes to deer.

 

[Tom_Ov]

Most original deer forests in East Englandshire seem to have been populated by various kings with Melanistic fallow for some reason. Apparently Rockingham forest Northants were originally black deer, but there being a park or two in the area at some time gives a rainbow effect now.

Certainly to my relatively untrained eye at the time, the deer in the Epping Forest enclosure and in the wider forest generally seemed to be a pretty generic mix of fallow, with perhaps a tendency towards being a bit darker, but not notably more so than in other areas.

 

[muddy42]

I agree, and tbf to CLC, I think that they are relatively close to the position that you outline above. Interesting to watch the debate at the meeting ( see here )- a good insight into how hard it is for public bodies (and membership orgs etc) to achieve consensus on issues like this when they've got a million and one 'stakeholders', many of whom are starting from a position of very little knowledge when it comes to deer.

I agree, it can't be easy for CLC. So different from here in Scotland, where a zero cull deer management policy wouldn't be tollerated..

 

[Dorset Shakari]

There may be some parallels with the Army Training Estate around Aldershot, which is surrounded by residential areas and has public access in all the non-live fire areas. I used to help manage this estate, and culling went on 365 days of the year (barring March obviously). You'd need to be acutely aware of dog walkers, joggers, doggers, mushroom pickers, and everything in between. There were seldom negative events. Probably due to the control and training of the stalkers.
I'd agree that "Hunting Clubs" in the UK exist only to exploit deer for the profit of a few, and certainly have no place in this type of area.