Different make of cases with same load & bullet what effect ?

[charlieboy-shooter]

I would like to thank everyone for there input, especially the guys that PM me. Had couple offers from local people to show me how they do it, which is great. I have now purchased some 2nd hand reloading equipment, RCBS RC press and stuff. Just need case trimmer, powder & bullets and I will starting on my first lot soon ( sure I could start a whole new debate on that one too). I have sorted out my cases by make and some even by make & same batch number. Have more than enough cases of any one make to get me started. I'm also keen to see how much of a difference, another case make, makes on an Identical load (will heed the advice & use start loads). My intention if possible over time is to cycle through each batch of brass. looking forward to the results or I think I am anyway.

Thanks

 

[Simjim33]

I would like to thank everyone for there input, especially the guys that PM me. Had couple offers from local people to show me how they do it, which is great. I have now purchased some 2nd hand reloading equipment, RCBS RC press and stuff. Just need case trimmer, powder & bullets and I will starting on my first lot soon ( sure I could start a whole new debate on that one too). I have sorted out my cases by make and some even by make & same batch number. Have more than enough cases of any one make to get me started. I'm also keen to see how much of a difference, another case make, makes on an Identical load (will heed the advice & use start loads). My intention if possible over time is to cycle through each batch of brass. looking forward to the results or I think I am anyway.

Thanks

Good on you mate. The only correct load is a safe one! Go for it!

 

[night stalker]

Just my 2p's worth. In small capacity cases (222 and 223) I have not found a difference between cases. I use Lapua match, RWS and WW super in 222 and Lapua, IMI, Remington and Brit mil surplus in 223 but have found a difference in larger capacity cases. I found a difference between Federal and Remington brass in my 25-06 and in my mates 30-06 there is a massive difference between Bremmer and Norma brass.

Rick

 

[Simjim33]

I just thought I would reference back to a thread I started about who makes brass.

Any one know how many company's actually MAKE brass?

It might have some bearing on the OPs question!

Yes, yes I know about different batches, blah blah blah. Please remember I only talk about a huntting reloading perspctive.

But with reference to CB's origanal OP. If there's 2-4 companies making brass. Plus assuming that the metallurgical properties of the brass can not be too much different. Then from a safety piont of view. A thicker walled case woud be better would it not.

 

[Muir]

There are a lot of good reasons to segregate brass. It's been a standard practice in reloading as far back as I can remember. If someone wants to mix LOTS of brass with moderate loads, I'm OK with that. That's their business. But if I ever catch wind of them weighing out each charge, or getting anal about accuracy, comparators, micrometer bullet seaters, or competition grade dies.... or anything remotely high tech... I'm going to give them a verbal sanding with 60 grit for their wasted efforts.

I don't believe you need to have all the bells and whistles of a Bench Rest Shooter to make good, accurate handloads, but you do need to use what you have in a consistent manner, and the most basic part of that is the brass and it's prep.~Muir

 

[see it shoot it]

There are a lot of good reasons to segregate brass. It's been a standard practice in reloading as far back as I can remember. If someone wants to mix LOTS of brass with moderate loads, I'm OK with that. That's their business. But if I ever catch wind of them weighing out each charge, or getting anal about accuracy, comparators, micrometer bullet seaters, or competition grade dies.... or anything remotely high tech... I'm going to give them a verbal sanding with 60 grit for their wasted efforts.

I don't believe you need to have all the bells and whistles of a Bench Rest Shooter to make good, accurate handloads, but you do need to use what you have in a consistent manner, and the most basic part of that is the brass and it's prep.~Muir

Muir
if you don't mind be asking whats your definition of good accurate handloads ??? what group size would you expect at 100 and 200 yards ??

 

[Sharpie]

with reference to CB's origanal OP. If there's 2-4 companies making brass. Plus assuming that the metallurgical properties of the brass can not be too much different. Then from a safety piont of view. A thicker walled case woud be better would it not.

No, quite the opposite.

A thicker walled case will have smaller internal capacity. For the same powder charge the smaller capacity case will generate higher pressure. For some powders a small decrease in case volume can give a pressure "spike" out of all proportion to the percentage reduction in case volume. This is because most powders burn faster as the chamber pressure increases, indeed rifle powders typically contain retardent chemicals or surface coatings to try to reduce this effect, which could otherwise runaway with disastrous results.

A charge that is safe in the larger capacity thin walled case may generate dangerous pressure in the smaller thicker case. The opposite situation is most unlikely to be unsafe.

This is one problem using military brass, e.g. .308 vs 7.62, and .223 vs. 5.56

In the case of .223 vs 5.56 some military 5.56 cases e.g. Radway Green are much much thicker than .223 and excessive pressure could easily be caused if safe .223 loads are not reduced.

In the case of .308 vs. 7.62 its even worse, as .308 is rated for 60,000 psi but 7.62 is only 50,000 psi. If you used a top-end .308 load in a smaller capacity (thicker brass) 7.62 case the pressures could easily rise much higher than 60,000 PSI. The brass could well fail, and if used in a rifle proofed only for 7.62 the rifle itself might be in danger of failure. This has been a concern for Lee Enfield .303s converted to 7.62, indeed ISTR they are banned from Bisley because of safety concerns about people shooting .308 or reloads instead of the lower pressure 7.62 rounds for which they were designed.

If you are relying on the slight extra thickness of a heavier case to somehow give some added safety factor you are deluding yourself. If you are working at pressures anywhere close to the yield strength of the case then you are playing with fire.

Heavier brass does not necessarily mean thicker or stronger, in the place where it matters, usually the case head web, nor is all brass of equal strength, indeed parts of the case are totally reliant on "work hardening" during the manufacturing process to improve their strength. If you completely anneal a case to soft condition throughout it is likely to fail completely with normal loads.

Even if the brass properties were identical, and the heavier cases were in direct linear proportion, the case strength would increase with the square of the linear proportion, whereas the case volume would reduce with the cube. So even if pressure rose linearly with the reduction in case volume, the case strength would not increase as fast. In reality things may be expected to be far worse.

 

[Simjim33]

I have several different makes of used cartridges all fired from my gun. When I eventually get everthing together and actually make my 1st load how much of a variation would these different cases make to the accuracy when everthing else is identical ? or should you always use the same make of brass.

It's been sometime, since I've started doing something new, that has left me wanting to ask so many questions. Maybe it's the thought that it could all go so terribly wrong.

Are you loading for hunting or chasing the Accuracy willow wisp?
Sharpy makes a point.
But here is where a bit of comon sence comes in doesn't it?

decide on what is execptable accuracy. Say a 1 inch group at 100 meters is fine for a normal stalking rifle!

Now If the OP weighs his case's filled with water. Takes the smallest case capacity and finds a safe load that fits the accuracy level he is looking for. That charge if no over pressure was detected! Would be safe to use in cases with slightly higher capacity would it not?

Now bearing in mind if the group opens to say 2inches at 100 meters that the OP's question might be considered to be. Yes it will make a difference. If the group stays the same with any case he loads using his moderate charge. As long as there are no over pressure signs! He should be ok would he not?

As stated before the lee loader makes pretty good safe hunting ammo, with no regard to what make of brass is being used in it.

To be frank when you re read the OP. then shouldn't we have all said "try it,but what for over pressure"!

 

[Muir]

Muir
if you don't mind be asking whats your definition of good accurate handloads ??? what group size would you expect at 100 and 200 yards ??

Suitable for your needs, of course! To the point, I have a set of plain RCBS 7x57 dies from 1966 that produce ammo for my 7x57 which will shoot .5 to .7" at 100M. My (gasp!) Lee collet dies will produce .223 ammo that will shoot in the .25 to .35" range from my custom Howa. I have always prided myself on good technique when reloading, even when the equipment hasn't been the best. I have seldom been able to blame bad loads on my reloading gear, but I have failed to use it properly, or failed to optimize it.~Muir

 

[see it shoot it]

Suitable for your needs, of course! To the point, I have a set of plain RCBS 7x57 dies from 1966 that produce ammo for my 7x57 which will shoot .5 to .7" at 100M. My (gasp!) Lee collet dies will produce .223 ammo that will shoot in the .25 to .35" range from my custom Howa. I have always prided myself on good technique when reloading, even when the equipment hasn't been the best. I have seldom been able to blame bad loads on my reloading gear, but I have failed to use it properly, or failed to optimize it.~Muir

so your accepted accuracy is basically half inch MOA,just like mine with factory rifle

 

[Paul at Fechan]

so eventually now we have a standard I'll go and shoot a group to check, how many rounds should I shoot with mixed brass, hell I'll use mixed bullets for a giggle.

 

[Muir]

so your accepted accuracy is basically half inch MOA,just like mine with factory rifle

No. Not necessarily.
If that 7x57 gave me inch and a quarter groups it would still be fine for it's application but it has done better with several loads and I have gotten these results over the last 30 years with it. I am quite happy with these loads; they came pretty easy and I'm not going to break my noggin or bank account trying to improve them. They exceed the need, so to speak.

The 223 is also a shooter. Initial groups were around 1" with this rifle which I consider to be the outer edge of acceptable on a rifle I'm going to shoot prairiedogs with. Curing some bedding issues brought the accuracy close to that half-inch mark all by itself. A change in bullet and propellant did the rest. No bench rest dies. No neck turning... nothing but good prep and good loading technique beginning with brass from the same LOT. (Military, no less) ~Muir

 

[Muir]

so eventually now we have a standard I'll go and shoot a group to check, how many rounds should I shoot with mixed brass, hell I'll use mixed bullets for a giggle.

THAT I'd like to see! ~Muir

 

[8x57]

Actually I did some experiments the other Sunday with my .223 using various bullets but the same identical weighed load. All the cases were prepped the same and the shots were fired from a firm rested position at 100 yards. Group sizes varied a fair bit, all would have been useable within the ranges that I normally shoot but the differences were quite marked. All the shooting was witnessed by three other SD members who just happened to be present on the range. I think you will see that the actual bullet though of similar weights will make a considerable differance.

View attachment 27614


View attachment 27615
Doing this actually saved me a bit of money. I was thinking about replacing the factory sythetic stock on my Browning A-Bolt with something better, but after shooting the one group (since repeated) I decided that it couldn't be bettered so if it aint broke don't try to fix it. The group that I am talking about was basically three rounds in one hole. No bad for a cheap factory rifle. I'm sure that I can tighten up the other groups a bit with a little bit of tweaking.

 

[Muir]

So all you did was substitute a different bullet make for each group, right? Was the upper group already established or was that just a lucky hit upon a really good load?

Yeah. I wouldn't restock it, either. I ordered a Boyd's stock to replace the Hogue-Rubbermaid stock on my Howa but after bedding the action the gun shoots so well I can't see fitting the new stock. Ugly, yes. Smelly? Yes. A good shooting platform? Unfortunately, yes. Luckily, I have another Howa .223 in the house I can use it on.~Muir

 

[8x57]

Yes the upper group was a load that I have been developing for some weeks. While I was developing this load I found that two different bullets gave completly different results. I failed to achieve an acceptable load using the one (bulk buy 55grn FMJ bullet) yet worked up the Sierra bullets that gave the tight group. I therefore assembled a pile of different .224 bullets of differing makes and of the same weight and loaded them identically in Winchester cases with Federal primers and N130 powder just to see what the result would be.
I also experimented with different primers a few weeks ago to see what effect that would have.

 

[Simjim33]

8x57,
was you controll group standard. All made using same make brass? Or we're they from a range of brass makers?

 

[Muir]

Yes the upper group was a load that I have been developing for some weeks. While I was developing this load I found that two different bullets gave completly different results. I failed to achieve an acceptable load using the one (bulk buy 55grn FMJ bullet) yet worked up the Sierra bullets that gave the tight group. I therefore assembled a pile of different .224 bullets of differing makes and of the same weight and loaded them identically in Winchester cases with Federal primers and N130 powder just to see what the result would be.
I also experimented with different primers a few weeks ago to see what effect that would have.

Was this a surprise? How did your primer test go?~Muir

 

[8x57]

No this wasn't really a surprise, but I was surprised by just how bad some of the loads could be using the one particular bullet. I know that Paul was only joking when he mentioned trying a lucky dip of bullets in addition to a lucky dip of cases. We all know without even conducting any testing that this will just add one variable after another, and for consistancy what we are trying to do is reduce the variables to a minimum not accumulate them. If for instance you overlapped the targets above you would probably find that the group would be something like 2" or 3"

The primers didn't seem to have a great deal of influence on group size. For that experiment I used the same bullets and charges for all loads I only changed the primers. I know that many shooters claim that the actual primer has a great influence on accurasy and this is repeated in several reloading manuals that I have, but the Nobel Sport reloading manual says that it doesn't make any difference. My tests were just to confirm or dispell this theory to myself. I haven't finished with that one yet but so far it looks like Nobel might be right yet in my mate's .17 fireball primers make quite a difference. So the jury is still out at the moment.

Simjim all the cases used were Winchester and trimmed exactly the same.

 

[Muir]

No this wasn't really a surprise, but I was surprised by just how bad some of the loads could be using the one particular bullet. I know that Paul was only joking when he mentioned trying a lucky dip of bullets in addition to a lucky dip of cases. We all know without even conducting any testing that this will just add one variable after another, and for consistancy what we are trying to do is reduce the variables to a minimum not accumulate them. If for instance you overlapped the targets above you would probably find that the group would be something like 2" or 3"

The primers didn't seem to have a great deal of influence on group size. For that experiment I used the same bullets and charges for all loads I only changed the primers. I know that many shooters claim that the actual primer has a great influence on accurasy and this is repeated in several reloading manuals that I have, but the Nobel Sport reloading manual says that it doesn't make any difference. My tests were just to confirm or dispell this theory to myself. I haven't finished with that one yet but so far it looks like Nobel might be right yet in my mate's .17 fireball primers make quite a difference. So the jury is still out at the moment.

Simjim all the cases used were Winchester and trimmed exactly the same.

I didn't suspect it would be!
I can tell you from first hand experience that Nobel is wrong. (unless they are talking about from an ignition/pressure stand point, not accuracy) In some loads, with some powders it may not make a difference, but I have seen groups open and shrink with a primer change on many occasions. The first was time many years ago in the 7x57. Half inch went to 1.25" by a primer change alone. Then it went back to half inch when I reverted to the original primers. Then I repeated the (by then) test with a different shooter without telling him what I was up to. Same results. I recently cut a noticeable amount of group size from my Savage 308 by switching primers.

My .223 and 22 Hornet just don't care with most powders. My bigger calibers do.~Muir