DMQ to charge AW's

[Greymaster]

I must admit, I'm rather confused as to the requirement of all this admin for AW's? After all, they are little more than a long list of people who actually administer themselves. Once registered, they carry out their duties with no real input or guidance from their assessment centre or DMQ. Sure, a few will leave and more will join, but this has been historically managed by the assessment centres with little or no fuss (or fee!) and DMQ just add or remove the name to the list. There are maybe a few emails with updates, but no postage involved. There isn't even a requirement to post out AW lists or portfolios to candidates any more as it is all held online on the 'Onefile' site. It should also be noted that AW's have no log in, access or input to the onefile site, so no costs or AW admin there either. All they are required to do is fill out an electronic PDF Individual Cull Report (ICR) template which is then emailed directly to the assessor, so no admin required there either.
In fact, the only real Admin burden I can see from Aw's, is that which would be created by charging them a fee!!!!
MS

Spot on with that analysis. Something like "We intend to institute a system of charging AWs (secret motive is greed), and we need to pay for a system to administer it."

Seems a bit like old style Soviet Union thinking here.

 

[norma 308]

Don't the statistics say it:

Latest Statistics	DSC1
Registered	27,493	8,746
Completed	25,681	5,443

[TD="width: 64"]DSC2[/TD]

Only 21% of DMQ 1 move onto DCS2,they probably have to many AW, so this is perhaps a crude way of cutting done on the number.

Personally, as a volunteer asking me to pay to continue volunteering seems slightly perverse, if additional income is required shouldn't they charge the candidates more?

Thought they were having a spring clean of AWS that didn’t access candidates anyway as a quite a few weren’t active(for various reasons ) but why then punish those that are !

 

[EMcC]

Thought they were having a cull of AW’s that didn’t access candidates anyway as a quite a few weren’t active but why then punish those that are !

They did not have a 'Cull', they asked if any AW's were no longer interested or wished to come voluntarily off the list. I do not like the use of the word Culled.
I asked to come off the list as I got fed up with the lack of experience of the applicants contacting me and my deteriating health.

 

[norma 308]

They did not have a 'Cull', they asked if any AW's were no longer interested or wished to come voluntarily off the list. I do not like the use of the word Culled.
I asked to come off the list as I got fed up with the lack of experience of the applicants contacting me and my deteriating health.

ammended post Eddie

 

[Turkish]

If 20 of the 'big players' and wannabes replied ( of a list of 300 at my last recollection ), and 18 of those said 'yes', you have your answer.

It dose not give what the returns ratio of the survey was, so ambiguous.

this will play into the hands of the big big boys, who could have the opportunity in an open field to charge what they want .

 

[Mick9abf]

I asked to come off the list as I got fed up with the lack of experience of the applicants contacting me and my deteriating health.

I think this half the problem with the DSC2. A situation has been created where people feel under pressure to get qualifications for various reasons (leases or because it’s seen as some sort of holy grail which it isn’t). I enjoyed my stalking for years before I even bothered about it and only did it for the game dealer tags and because of the unpredictable attitude of the (SNP) Scottish Government towards fieldsports and the countryside in general or I still wouldn’t have bothered.

There seems to be an attitude that people ‘need to get qualified’, this has no doubt been swung by the pressure or ‘advice’ from stakeholders like BASC (I am not bashing and am a member) and dare I say it due to forums such as this and various social media platforms which has created some people with ‘holier than thou’ attitudes where experience doesn’t matter anymore, only bits of paper, the first of which you can pass without ever seeing a deer.

I tend not to get drawn into DSC threads because it impacts very little on me and does not interest me as it always turns into a bun fight between those for or against. I do wonder if this will be the beginning of the end for the DSC as if I was sitting in a LANTRA board room at the minute I’d be rubbing my hands having already formulated a replacement course which I would get into the NVQ system.........

 

[jimmy milnes]

I think this half the problem with the DSC2. A situation has been created where people feel under pressure to get qualifications for various reasons (leases or because it’s seen as some sort of holy grail which it isn’t). I enjoyed my stalking for years before I even bothered about it and only did it for the game dealer tags and because of the unpredictable attitude of the (SNP) Scottish Government towards fieldsports and the countryside in general or I still wouldn’t have bothered.

There seems to be an attitude that people ‘need to get qualified’, this has no doubt been swung by the pressure or ‘advice’ from stakeholders like BASC (I am not bashing and am a member) and dare I say it due to forums such as this and various social media platforms which has created some people with ‘holier than thou’ attitudes where experience doesn’t matter anymore, only bits of paper, the first of which you can pass without ever seeing a deer.

I tend not to get drawn into DSC threads because it impacts very little on me and does not interest me as it always turns into a bun fight between those for or against. I do wonder if this will be the beginning of the end for the DSC as if I was sitting in a LANTRA board room at the minute I’d be rubbing my hands having already formulated a replacement course which I would get into the NVQ system.........

A lot of sense in this when I think about it, good post
Regards
Jimmy

 

[countrryboy]

If the above is the case most lantra tickets have a 5yr expiry date on them (well the chainsaw 1's do, lantra aren't stupid) if that is the case the merry go round will never stop turning as we all jump on/off constantly renewing useless tickets. Also many companies don't recognise lantra tickets anyway (well in forestry industry)
Be a dream scenerio for all the 'trainers' out there, a constant stream of candidates coming throu

This is a very bad move for stalking in general.

I can see wot Turkish has just said hapening, this plays right into the hands of the bigger outfits (who'er not always better) to charge extra fees for doing the paperwork (which to be fair i don't entirely havea problem with, if u were a plumber/tradesman and had the choice of 2 identical jobs but 1 involved a load of paper work after it surley u would price it higher?)
But u might end up with only 1-2 aW's for entire regions and only willing to witness on there own ground (so there getting a stalking fee+ aW fee) so ur experienced stalker with his own ground might struggle to find AW that will come out to witness them.


I take it it will never go back to how it used to be?? Was it 2 ICR's by credible? witness's

 

[sikamalc]

Well as of this morning I have still NOT received a response to my email from DMQ.

The whole system seems to be in a complete fall out to me, and whilst I have several people lined up to do their Level 2 in the coming weeks I am in two minds at the moment if I really want to be associated with such an organisation.

DMQ board from the 1st November will be the only people vetting those applicants to become an AW. To a certain extent I can see why. There were a lot on the list who became an AW who frankly did not have enough experience in my opinion, and I know of some assessors who were not fit for purpose either.
Charging AW's is in my opinion a VERY bad move, and although it may make some AW's leave, who are not up to scratch, it will also I feel make others who have contributed a lot to also rethink about staying on

To me is seems that this whole organisation staggers on without any forward thinking on future development.

 

[EMcC]

ammended post Eddie

Thanks, the word 'Cull' did sound a bit brutal
The L2 is a bit of a strange bit of paper as some of the ones I did proved to be.
Some of the candidates I did actually worked towards it and did quite a few stalks in a relatively short time, sometimes as little as two years but the experience was there including a few cock-ups and they knew how to sort it.
Some of the others had been doing it for years and, had they been as old as me, would probably have had the same amount of experience as me but they needed the bit of paper to comply with the ground rules on some of the leases they intended to take on.
Some of the others had got L1 and read a few books and knew it all having done two or three stalks and recently acquired their new rifle all within less than a year, needles to say I offered to mentor them but was not taken up on the offer and no doubt went elsewhere to take L2.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

Unfortunately, the DSC 2 is the only recognised practical assessment that we have. It has been adopted by numerous organisations and therefore remains a requirement to hold in some instances. This is often driven by risk assessment and insurance, and once established, is unlikely to be changed. Until something else comes along to replace it, we therefore need protect it, along with the current ability to obtain it for future applicants. Recent plans will only make it harder to obtain, which is surely a step backwards?
MS

 

[devon deer stalker]

Recent plans will only make it harder to obtain, which is surely a step backwards?
MS

My thought exactly, such an ill thought out crass decision by those within the DMQ, I would assume a 'business management' decision by a few highly educated over qualified individuals with no common sense and a failure to see the repercussions, all well and good in the interim, but for the future when agencies insist upon L2 and there aren't sufficient qualified L2's to satisfy the demands hopefully heads will roll, or I guess they would have left by then leaving the mess to others within common sense and practical field experience in the deer management world to pick up the pieces, I applaud all those that have withdrawn as AW's because of this, hopefully someone will see the reaction and put a stop to this.
Cheers
Richard

 

[Pete6.5]

I'm always surprised by people when they seem to agree with all the qualifications and paper that are needed now and I'm not just talking about dsc. when you look at them individually they seem like a great idea and they are hard to argue against but it is just a constant spiral up of cost that everyone has to pick up. I'm a heating engineer and believe me I know about qualifications first you don't need them then you do then someone decides that they only last 5 years then they split one qualification in to two. Being self employed I deal with a lot of people and money and find most people careful with their money. ( which is perfectly fine) and yet people are blissfully walking down a road that there is no return. Then they bitch about how expensive everything is getting. And if you think all this is for the good of the people you are on another plant.

One last thing when I was taking one of my last qualifications to do with heating a few of us were talking to one of the lecturers about unvented cylinders because when I first took it it was meant to last forever then they changed the goal posts and said it had to be done every 5 years and the lectures said I don't know why you are moaning just pass the cost on to the customer.

 

[Freeforester]

Like most regulatory instruments, they offer little by way of real, practical benefit, but are an additional cost to be borne, ultimately by the hapless candidate, who is obliged to comply by the rigging of the system in this way (- "No ticket? You are not 'qualified) and at the stroke of a keyboard otherwise perfectly able and skilled practitioners are thus rendered as so much "ineligible" for some dubious cull permission - leases ceased some time back North of the wall, apparently it's much easier to rescind a permission than a lease. Take a look too at the number of 'tickets' required to be an "insider", not one of which means anything whatsoever to the deer. The art of turning a simple task into rocket science, and keeping ever greater layers of clipboard huggers employed a-regulating those practical types more interested in getting the job done. I doubt if I'll continue to be an AW going forward, I did it to give something back, but that now seems to be being taken somewhat for granted by the regulatory supremos, to the extent that they wish the aforementioned 'cogs' to pay to help the wheel to turn, whilst the cuckoos await the top of the hour to "do their bit"; they forget that without the cogs, the machine doesn't work too well...

 

[Dickie]

Easy for the lecturer to say . Your trade has to do the ticket he is sorted with employment.

 

[reloader54]

Like most regulatory instruments, they offer little by way of real, practical benefit, but are an additional cost to be borne, ultimately by the hapless candidate, who is obliged to comply by the rigging of the system in this way (- "No ticket? You are not 'qualified) and at the stroke of a keyboard otherwise perfectly able and skilled practitioners are thus rendered as so much "ineligible" for some dubious cull permission - leases ceased some time back North of the wall, apparently it's much easier to rescind a permission than a lease. Take a look too at the number of 'tickets' required to be an "insider", not one of which means anything whatsoever to the deer. The art of turning a simple task into rocket science, and keeping ever greater layers of clipboard huggers employed a-regulating those practical types more interested in getting the job done. I doubt if I'll continue to be an AW going forward, I did it to give something back, but that now seems to be being taken somewhat for granted by the regulatory supremos, to the extent that they wish the aforementioned 'cogs' to pay to help the wheel to turn, whilst the cuckoos await the top of the hour to "do their bit"; they forget that without the cogs, the machine doesn't work too well...

if there was an award for "most accurate post" on here,, the ^^^above^^^ would be a very strong contender.

 

[Huntersforge]

What would happen if all us AWs decided to stop being AWs en mass. How would the dsc2 be awarded then. Would the big forestry players take it in house like the phoney skills test some of them make prospective lease holders take and charge a fortune for the privilege

 

[lochty]

Having read the email from DMQ again, and having only just gone back on the register after a period away for personal reasons, unless their charge is minimal, I can see my name disappearing again pretty quickly.....

 

[finnbear270]

What about a copy of this thread finding it's way to head office?

 

[EMcC]

Having read the email from DMQ again, and having only just gone back on the register after a period away for personal reasons, unless their charge is minimal, I can see my name disappearing again pretty quickly.....

Minimal ?? there shouldn't be any charge at all, after all the AWs' are helping generate cash for the DMQ - no AWs' no L2 portfolios.
Not sure what the Portfolio costs these days but that should cover it, methinks.