Dog trackers .

[Tulloch]

Before I start I am not having a go about the practice or the service provided, never had the need for an independent tracker and I have my own dog who is adequate and works very well. I do appreciate the service they provide and its good for people who need it.

I noticed on ocassion on various posts and other social media outlets that SOME deer dog trackers have it in their heads they have free right to go where they like to track a deer specially with firearm in hand.

I have a little issue with this and have been involved in a few conversations about it.

Firstly deer only belongs to the shooter if it drops on your land, if it crosses the boundary onto someone elses ground then that deer, dead wounded or whatever, does not belong to you and if you need to track onto someone elses land then you must inform the agent of that land in doing so. Also your not legally allowed to take that deer away again another reason why you should inform the landowner.

I had a guy this year walking on a certain peice of ground with his rifle and dog claiming he was searching for a wounded deer, I helped him search and I did find the deer. Now in no way in my opinion did the deer run as far as he said it did with the shot placement he made, a conversation ensued on who owns the deer in which I clearly said it actually belongs to me, he was not happy about it so I let him take it but with a severe warning if he is ever caught again I will call the police. Now if ut was gut shot or brisket burnt I might not have said anyting but upper shoulder and running almost 300m from the march hmmm

Deer tracking does not give you the right to just let your dogs go where they like either, I have seen comments such as " I put the gps tracker on and let them run", now I have watched professional tracking dogs I have seen how they nip and bey at the deer when found and I have seen them also kill a wounded deer, putting a gps tracker on and letting them go does NOT mean your in control of your dog, I don't care if you say your dog is good with sheep all dogs have instincts and left without order their insticts kick in, I have seen professional sheep dogs attack sheep because they got out the kennel at night in fact I had to prove to one farmer that it was her dog killing lambs not a fox . Farmers and landowner dont know who or what the dog is doing if you don't inform them.

Now many tracking services cover areas that cause them to take hours to get to a property, landowners can be informed in that time.

I am done pussy footing around a lot of issues in this industry, so many on here are willing to criticise on others practices and how other go about their day to day shooting activities and hide behind their professionalism, training and experience but it is clear the old way of "what someone doesnt see wont hurt" is starting to cause major issues for the future of the industry, sport and the ability to hold general public perception to what we do in good regard.

I know it seems to be a rant but a recent sheep post on here has really got me thinking. Too many on that post still think in ways that are contrary to law and what is right.

Dog trackers spend a lot of money on their dogs as well as time training them but so do hare and deer coarsers as well as sheep wranglers so an unknown dog running a farmers field is still an unknown dog and if I have a field full of pregnant sheep running about frantic because a dog, whether it is a £20 mongrel or a £5000 BMH it will get the same treatment.

Just because you have spent the time and money on your dog and it is personal to you it does not make your dog immune to the law, I have two labs I love dearly and I know neither one even looks at sheep as I work them in sheep fields daily, and a few on this forum will verify that, I have pictures of orphaned lambs in my footwell warming while the dog sits on the seat above them not bothering, but never upon never would I trust the with free reign to run sheep fields.

Deer dog trackers are no different from any other dog owner, keep them on a lead if its not your ground.

 

[finnbear270]

Before I got to this sentence, I was already thinking the same.I know it seems to be a rant but a recent sheep post on here has really got me thinking. Too many on that post still think in ways that are contrary to law and what is right.

 

[CarlW]

Agree 100%.

 

[deerstalker.308]

Just an observation of mine from this season, 3 weeks ago, o shot a hind close to my boundary, facing into my Woodland. Reaction to shot was good, and I expected her to drop shortly after, but instead, she ran, and ran, did a 180 in front of me and headed back out into the open on my neighbours ground. She made it 400m with a hole from the front of her right shoulder quartering to mid rib cage.
needless to say I contacted my neighbour and requested permission to collect her, which was duly granted, but it did surprise me just how far a shoulder shot deer could run, not two circumstances are alike, and you never know what might happen.
I do totally agree with the rest of your post though, just throwing that experience into the mix.

 

[User00014]

As a tracker, I can tell you this in England the track stops at the boundary, no permission to cross equals no more tracking.

i have driven 1000’s of miles to track all over the country and the rule applies.

that is the law and we obey it.

i have driven from norwich to beyond scotch corner, tracked 200m and had to stop at the boundary, Thant’s the law and That’s how it goes.

when you offer a service and the phone rings, you go and any professional tracker should be in control of their dog and only let them go once you are in the correct situation to do so.

just letting a dog go off on a jolly just because it has a gps collar on, is in my opinion irresponsible.

 

[Tulloch]

As a tracker, I can tell you this in England the track stops at the boundary, no permission to cross equals no more tracking.

i have driven 1000’s of miles to track all over the country and the rule applies.

that is the law and we obey it.

i have driven from norwich to beyond scotch corner, tracked 200m and had to stop at the boundary, Thant’s the law and That’s how it goes.

when you offer a service and the phone rings, you go and any professional tracker should be in control of their dog and only let them go once you are in the correct situation to do so.

just letting a dog go off on a jolly just because it has a gps collar on, is in my opinion irresponsible.

Thats what I was getting at mainly

 

[Tulloch]

Just an observation of mine from this season, 3 weeks ago, o shot a hind close to my boundary, facing into my Woodland. Reaction to shot was good, and I expected her to drop shortly after, but instead, she ran, and ran, did a 180 in front of me and headed back out into the open on my neighbours ground. She made it 400m with a hole from the front of her right shoulder quartering to mid rib cage.
needless to say I contacted my neighbour and requested permission to collect her, which was duly granted, but it did surprise me just how far a shoulder shot deer could run, not two circumstances are alike, and you never know what might happen.
I do totally agree with the rest of your post though, just throwing that experience into the mix.

I would expect that with red or even a sika stag but not with a 15kg Roe deer shot with a .308 300 yards is a log way with a massive hole in you when your that small

 

[deerstalker.308]

I would expect that with red or even a sika stag but not with a 15kg Roe deer shot with a .308 300 yards is a log way with a massive hole in you when your that small

Agreed, I have had a roe buck do similar too but I’m not trying to derail your point, I suspect your suspicions weren’t far off the mark, but to also back up Lee above, this certainly isn’t an issue with the way he and his other colleagues behave down here, so it may be more of an issue north of the wall where certain rules are slightly different and open to misinterpretation?
Lee has been down to me once and was totally respectful of local politics and boundaries, at no point would he have considered crossing land he/I didn’t have permission on.

 

[Tulloch]

Agreed, I have had a roe buck do similar too but I’m not trying to derail your point, I suspect your suspicions weren’t far off the mark, but to also back up Lee above, this certainly isn’t an issue with the way he and his other colleagues behave down here, so it may be more of an issue north of the wall where certain rules are slightly different and open to misinterpretation?
Lee has been down to me once and was totally respectful of local politics and boundaries, at no point would he have considered crossing land he/I didn’t have permission on.

I am not referring to individual organisations , as I said I have never had to use a service but I did pick up on the Sheep post that someone mentioned they were unhappy because they almost had their dog shot while tracking . Now to be fair that is not the firat time I have heard such comments both on here and Facebook and mostly from guys below the border.

 

[rem284]

I am lucky in the fact that i have few neighbours. I trust them and gather that i am trusted too. I would trust the guys around me to do the best that they can to bring to a quick end the suffering of an animal where possible

 

[countrryboy]

I have no idea about ur roe, u may be right about the stalker?? But I'll never truly know.
Not right if it s thou

But I'm pretty certain in Scotland u can actually legally track over boundries without contacting nieghbours, it is best practice to do so or ideally have arrangements already.
Althou I think more a defense than a right, I'm sure others will be along to confirm.
But the Der should have been yours as u knew.

Just how that works in practice i have no idea, can't see the FC allowing access happily for anyone to roam about with a firearm. Esp the hoops u have to jump throu to get on 1 off there syndicates

U just have to hope u have nieghbours like rem and his that all canbe trusted to do the right thing

Must admit I have always seen folk wanting GPS trackers and never quite understood why they are needed.

And ur dead right about dogs and sheep, I know good pro trainers who say u can never trust any dog with sheep and esp if more than 1 dog lose, pack mentality takes over.
A mate had 2 dogs rightly shot after killing quite a few sheep when they escaped from his kennel somehow and he is usually a very good dog person

 

[Wolverine]

Tracking dogs and sheep......or anything else....

Until someone sees a properly trained HS/BGS work,one cannot comment.

Our dogs WILL IGNORE ALL THINGS on a track to find the animal they are tracking.

Ignore sheep,people,other dogs,other animals....IGNORE ALL THINGS.

Section 25 does not give carte blanche to all to cross boundaries with a rifle-if you have the correct reason too you can though.

The situation above that Tulloch outlines looks like someone completely taking the ****-to which he should never have allowed said stalker/tracker away with the animal.
What it looks like to me is that he was poaching.

An animal wounded and running away from you can only be stopped with a trained dog.
The problem is that the majority of dogs are not trained.
99% of dogs will not ignore all things.

All the best
George

 

[Island]

Tracking dogs and sheep......or anything else....

Until someone sees a properly trained HS/BGS work,one cannot comment.

Our dogs WILL IGNORE ALL THINGS on a track to find the animal they are tracking.

Ignore sheep,people,other dogs,other animals....IGNORE ALL THINGS.

Section 25 does not give carte blanche to all to cross boundaries with a rifle-if you have the correct reason too you can though.

The situation above that Tulloch outlines looks like someone completely taking the ****-to which he should never have allowed said stalker/tracker away with the animal.
What it looks like to me is that he was poaching.

An animal wounded and running away from you can only be stopped with a trained dog.
The problem is that the majority of dogs are not trained.
99% of dogs will not ignore all things.

All the best
George

Whilst I understand your sentiment Wolverine one must also bear in mind that a dog does not have to physically attack livestock to cause "worrying" in the legislative sense. Whether or not the dog "ignores all things" whilst on track, a ewe will most certainly NOT ignore it.

The best trained dog in the world, tracking through a field of pregnant ewes, can cause enough distress by its presence to cause abortions...

 

[cookingfat]

Can I just let you know where myself and all the other full UKDTR members are on the matter of crossing boundaries in the UK.

All our full tracking members have to attend a training day which in it covers the law and best practice when called out to help a stalker,
One of the questions in the test paper covers this very event,
Some of the questions we ask when called out are, is their likely to be a boundary issue, have you contacted your neighbours, can we cross if needed, can we use our firearms.
The law in England is very clear about crossing a boundary with a firearm or not,
In Scotland you can cross a boundary to end suffering!

NO UKDTR MEMBER WILL CROSS BOUNDARY ANYWHERE IN THE UK WITHOUT PERMISSION with or without a firearm.

Tony

 

[mchughcb]

Thank god for thermal head shots from the pros.

 

[Wolverine]

Whilst I understand your sentiment Wolverine one must also bear in mind that a dog does not have to physically attack livestock to cause "worrying" in the legislative sense. Whether or not the dog "ignores all things" whilst on track, a ewe will most certainly NOT ignore it.

The best trained dog in the world, tracking through a field of pregnant ewes, can cause enough distress by its presence to cause abortions...

Worrying in the legislative sense is exactly that-chasing sheep.
A dog being present within a field of sheep will cause alarm to sheep but not enough to abort.
A dog chasing and cornering sheep will cause them to abort.
Dogs going through fields of sheep will not cause abortion of foetuses unless the sheep are badgered or harassed.

Last year I was asked to shoot 2 black labradors that got into the field next door.
They were actively worrying the sheep-going from end of the field to the other-collies could not have done a better job.
The sheep were a week away from giving birth and to this day I have no idea how they never aborted their lambs.
The farmer was amazed as well.

The labs weren’t shot-I got hold of them and put them to the dog warden.
The labs haven’t chased again after stern warnings.

Another incident I know of was where 2 GWPs went for a walkabout by themselves and savages over 60 sheep-the field was carnage-the GWPs were dogs trained to deer.
These dogs would actively sneak away to have fun.

As said above-fully trained HS and BGS WILL IGNORE ALL.
Including sheep within the same field.

 

[Wolverine]

Can I just let you know where myself and all the other full UKDTR members are on the matter of crossing boundaries in the UK.

All our full tracking members have to attend a training day which in it covers the law and best practice when called out to help a stalker,
One of the questions in the test paper covers this very event,
Some of the questions we ask when called out are, is their likely to be a boundary issue, have you contacted your neighbours, can we cross if needed, can we use our firearms.
The law in England is very clear about crossing a boundary with a firearm or not,
In Scotland you can cross a boundary to end suffering!

NO UKDTR MEMBER WILL CROSS BOUNDARY ANYWHERE IN THE UK WITHOUT PERMISSION with or without a firearm.

Tony

Perhaps Tony,it would have been beneficial for you and UKDTR members to know the law within Scotland before telling everyone that it was illegal to cross boundaries in Scotland with a firearm.
It is not......
If there is an animal wounded and I have a dog capable of doing the job to alleviate suffering-which I have,I will release that dog to get that animal.
We at UKSHA work closely with Police Scotland and actively use Section 25 of the Deer Act Scotland.
Merry Xmas Tony and well done for admitting that you were wrong in regard to Section 25-at least you can admit that.
All the best for 2020.

 

[Stalker62]

Can I just let you know where myself and all the other full UKDTR members are on the matter of crossing boundaries in the UK.

All our full tracking members have to attend a training day which in it covers the law and best practice when called out to help a stalker,
One of the questions in the test paper covers this very event,
Some of the questions we ask when called out are, is their likely to be a boundary issue, have you contacted your neighbours, can we cross if needed, can we use our firearms.
The law in England is very clear about crossing a boundary with a firearm or not,
In Scotland you can cross a boundary to end suffering!

NO UKDTR MEMBER WILL CROSS BOUNDARY ANYWHERE IN THE UK WITHOUT PERMISSION with or without a firearm.

Tony

 

[Stalker62]

It very much seems the Scots have got this right...

 

[rms364]

Whilst I understand your sentiment Wolverine one must also bear in mind that a dog does not have to physically attack livestock to cause "worrying" in the legislative sense. Whether or not the dog "ignores all things" whilst on track, a ewe will most certainly NOT ignore it.

The best trained dog in the world, tracking through a field of pregnant ewes, can cause enough distress by its presence to cause abortions...

I’d be very Surprised with this last statement... I and many other sheep farmers get are heavily pregnant ewes in with dogs, that are actually working the flock. This is the difference in my eyes to working and worrying.... sheep aren’t quite as thick as many of you believe. They as all animals are very good at reading another animals body language and intentions. I would of thought a tracking dog with nose on the floor making no eye contact with the ewes will have little impact on them.
Just my opinion all the same