dsc worries

That about sums it up - the 'standard' for the industry that's sprung up to service the testing regime that's neither compulsory nor 'required', (unless of course you wish to lease stalking from certain bodies, be deemed as 'fit & competent' in some areas, or even obtain a Firearms Certificate if you live in a county with a draconian FLD! :D

It's not required or compulsory but it is a very good place to start and I hope no one reading this is put off doing it. As a novice having only shot two deer on paid stalks I swotted for ages beforehand and found it very interesting. It provides you with the basic knowledge to start stalking legally,safely and humanely but if some numpties choose to ignore it that's hardly a fault of the qualification.
A while back there was a thread on here about the legality of shooting dependant young that would otherwise be out of season, something that is covered quite throughly in DSC1. The OP had shot a doe only to realise that it had a buck kid with it and wasn't sure if he should have shot that as well.
Surley it would have been better for him to have had the knowledge of that before he shot the doe than have to research it afterwards?
 
:-|
Is the dsc getting any easier ?, i know of some real numnuts who have passed it in recent months!!!. I thought it was at the time a real acheivment to pass but these days im just wondering is it a guarenteed pass???? I would hope for the sake of our deer that its not the case, some of these recent candidates i dont think are capable to use a spud gun let alone a large c/f rifle just my thoughts:-|
 
:cuckoo:
Have the question banks or the structure of the test changed in recent years? - No
Have the assessment teams changed in any way? - No
Does independent assessment remove the option of 'guaranteed pass'? - It should
Has the quality and variety of training available improved in the same timeframe? - Yes
Does catering for different learning styles improve the impact of training? - Yes
So, are more people likely to pass? - Probably
Are more people taking it now than ever before, so more people have the qualification? - Yes
Is it hard for 'numbnuts' to pass? - Not really

It is worrying that the test as a measure of ability or experience falls a long way short. To claim rifle handling competence on basis of a short walk and a handful of shots is banal - I agree.
 
Having just got confirmation that I passed DSC 1 back at end Feb, I hope anyone reading this post will value my input. I will admit that if you do learn the answers to ALL the sample questions in the trainging handout that you will pass ONE section of the assesment but having memorised those 300+ possible questions, I also believe you would have absorbed some of that knowledge.

The deer identification slides require you to name species and sex of deer shown on 20 slides. Getting the sex or species correct on its own does not count as a 'half mark' - its both to get marked correct.

The practical assessment was probably the most straight forward part to get but again you were continually being asked questions relevant to stalking while out with the person assesing you.

The range assesment was easily achievable by anyone who had used a rifle before and had bothered to practise with sticks but even with that, 2 on the course I attended had to retake the assessment another day and everyones deer target showed just how much our ' carefully placed shots' could actually wander around the kill zone even without the added pressure of shooting at an actual live animal. I think we all learned from that one.

In summary- a pass guaranteed - No but realisticly achievable with some work - YES
 
Is the dsc getting any easier ?, i know of some real numnuts who have passed it in recent months!!!. I thought it was at the time a real acheivment to pass but these days im just wondering is it a guarenteed pass???? I would hope for the sake of our deer that its not the case, some of these recent candidates i dont think are capable to use a spud gun let alone a large c/f rifle just my thoughts:-|

What do you mean by 'numnuts'? Are you saying that they are unsafe with a rifle? Have you seen bad practice amongst them? is it their attitudes towards firearms?

Just interested why you feel like this.

Regards,

Mike
 
DSC1 means different things to different people. Most people do level 1 because either the want a good footing to get involved in stalking or are already stalking and want to advance their position in the game by increasing their knowledge and understanding of what it means to be a deer stalker.

DSC Level 1 is not easy by any means and those that choose to do learn a lot of valuable infortmation. Not everyone does it to be a better stalker though and some candidates are there because they have to be for various reasons. It's unfair to try and devalue the qualification though based on most of the posts in this thread because as a qualification it's only an entry level measure of knowledge, understanding and competance. It's not meant to act as a statement that prooves someone is highly trained in deer management. What do people expect level 1 to act as?
 
I can't quite believe that I've risen to answering yet another DSC1 training thread, but here goes.

"DSC1 is a basic qualification for deer stalkers and managers. It is a largely knowledge based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their understanding of basic deer management principles and meat hygiene, and to show competence in shooting at simulated targets."

Anyone recognise that? It's from DMQ's website. The DSC1 doesn't pretend to qualify you as a stalking ninja, nor does it somehow perform a vulcan mind-meld and magically impart the combined knowledge of Messrs Prior, Carne, Whitehead, De Nahlik, Smith-Jones, Griffiths, et al.

Instead, as DMQ admit, it is basic. In fact it's not just basic, but it's largely a knowledge based qualification, so anyone who can study the questions in the question bank, remember the answers and then regurgitate them in exam conditions should be able to pass. Providing, that is, they can also pass the visual recognition, safety and shooting tests. ;)

Gaining your DSC1 is not like gaining membership of some private and exclusive club, and nor should it be. That's not to downplay the achievement of those who gain it - in fact all credit to them - but if you meet the criteria you pass, it really is that simple. Everyone is being measured against the same standard, whether they've spent a lifetime shooting deer or never had one in their sights. What could be fairer than that?

Leaving aside some legislative changes, the questions haven't changed a great deal over the years. But if I compare the current situation to when I sat my DSC1 over 10 years ago, there is far more choice of training available, using far better material, delivered in what seems to be a far more professional manner. If you want to see a perfect example of being able to teach to a defined curriculum, the DSC1 is it. So is it a surprise that the pass rate has improved - absolutely not.

From my own, albeit limited, experience the people who have most difficulty with DSC1 are from the "been doing this for years, nothing you can tell me about deer" camp. Every individual works within the confines of their own knowledge and experience. The problem is that, working in isolation, you just can't tell if your knowledge is right or wrong and your experiences good or bad.

As for those who deny the need for any training, I've yet to hear them come up with any realistic proposal as to how new entrants into deer stalking would start on their journey of knowledge and experience if training wasn't available. Would we prefer to see everyone have a mentor clause on their ticket - that's always supposing there were enough mentors to go around - and how would we then police the mentors? Or do we think that it's as simple as "if you've got a deer-legal calibre on your FAC you should be allowed to shoot deer"? So that's deer welfare and hygiene out the window then?

Or is it, as the cynic in me supposes, that really we'd prefer to restrict the number of people getting into deer stalking in the first place, and offering training like DSC1 only encourages them?

willie_gunn
 
What do you mean by 'numnuts'? Are you saying that they are unsafe with a rifle? Have you seen bad practice amongst them? is it their attitudes towards firearms?

Just interested why you feel like this.

Regards,

Mike

Mike, why is it that I get the feeling that if in the unlikely event that you do get an answer to this question, it will almost certainly be like the time when I contracted campylobacter...........lacking in substance?
 
Mike, why is it that I get the feeling that if in the unlikely event that you do get an answer to this question, it will almost certainly be like the time when I contracted campylobacter...........lacking in substance?

Hmmmm! ............. I'm inclined to agree with you, but I'd still be interested to know!

Hope your ailment is better now........

Mike
 
level 1 is a basic test , it wont make an expert out of a fool but it will make a fool out of an "expert".
 
I would agree its to easy to many numties pass then think they are the best thing since sliced bread 300 + yard head shots etc etc, landowners see the dc1 + dc2 as proof people know what there doing when in fact from fac to dc1 dc2 can take weeks or months. you need years of knowledge to do what we do properly

Agreed.

As a matter of interest, I wonder how many people on here have actually been asked by a landowner to see their DSCL 1 or 2 certs?

I have NEVER been asked by anyone (except Tillhill Forestry once) and I don't know anyone else who's been asked by landowners.

......... Although I know loads of folks that have been asked by their FEO's.

It would be interesting to find out. Perhaps somebody could run a poll on SD.

Regards,

Mike
(Director - Jelen Deer Services) Home | Jelen Deer Services
 
Saw opening post and have to admit, thought 'here we go.... again'. Still pretty much of that view after wading through the various posts. For the sake of sanity ( mine at least ), going to look at this as one of those things that will keep on coming up and like a merry-go-round, it is ultimately a posters choice as to whether he wants to get on... again!

That said, it is noticeable that the quality and direction of a good number of the posts is noticeably improving over the time this debate has been going. I think that point and the fact that this question is obviously something that taxes a significant number of people justify its cropping up.

As has been pointed out -

1. Other than minor semantics and legislation changes, the questions haven't significantly changed. So short answer - no its not easier - or harder

2. 300 yd headshot after doing DSC1? - that's the individuals problem, because they obviously have disregarded everything DSC1 stands for. Unless very good at acting/ towing the line, they will not survive DSC2 assessment. We live in a free Country ( ok - relative term ) short of electrochemical/ Hypno techniques I am not aware of any training system that guarantees full unfailing compliance from a student. Of course if DMQ came up with such a mind implant system - then you'd really have something to complain about... until you were programmed:shock:

3. DSC1 is a knowledge based foundation course/ assessment. It is not, was not and was never intended to turn you into Jean Claud Van Darn - beside which his jeans are too tight to stalk in.
Adjman put it well as did 6Pointer. And as for WillieG - great post.

4. Voluntary v mandatory. Its voluntary. If your FEO/ Constabulary insist that you have it before they grant/ vary etc - you take it up with them. There is no legal basis for them to insist upon it. The catch all of being satisfied as to good reason/ public safety can be challenged through the system.

We see clients from around the world - many subject to mandatory - and very expensive training/ test processes. In terms of training element alone, on a practical basis we have yet to see anyone demonstrate their training exceeds that offered by DSC1.

5. Everyone is an individual - no two people will approach DSC1 in exactly the same way, or derive exactly the same things from it. Vive la difference!

6. In terms of numbers passing - there has been significant change in terms of delivery. There is a much broader range of course options available, improved training materials, online/ IT based resources and improved professional standards ( whether bench marked to Jelen or not ;)) - that does have an impact. We still get students that come in having not followed any of the study advice - but choosing instead their 'mates' assertion - 'its a doddle, just turn up and you will get it' etc. They are the numpty, not the examining system. The most heartening thing is that often we only get to speak to them after their fellow students have had a talk. Mostly, they just politely request if they could come back next time. The most important aspect of the pass rate - and one that shouldn't be downplayed or lost in claims from any trainer - THE MAJORITY OF CANDIDATES THESE DAYS PUT A GREAT DEAL OF EFFORT INTO PREPARATION - simply, they graft, they put the hours in. For some it more than others, but it happens. I feel the biggest potential disservice these general kinds of threads do is take away from the recognition that the silent majority put a great deal into the process and get a great deal out of it.
 
level 1 is a basic test , it wont make an expert out of a fool but it will make a fool out of an "expert".

Well I should be OK then as I am not expert :D.

Heck I have never seen a Sika, the only CWD I saw was the one I had to avoid in the recovery truck, and I always look up the season dates .......................... still. Mind you just for the heck of it I might get my "Bear" certificate from Montana as I took the only "Training" and then the test and got 93%. The chances of me hunting Black bear in Montana is slim to none but what the heck. This is the second time I have passed a bear test. Took one back in 2003 whilst perusing the American DNR sites on regulations. Did not bother with the certificate then either. Although I do have invites to go and hunt Deer and Elk the cost is more than I can afford at present but one can dream. Perhaps plan for next year as permits have to be applied for in advance in a lot of states.

Hmmm perhaps the Bear certificate might come in useful.
 
Regarding my original post mike i have seen a recent spate of people getting dsc1. I have seen on 2 seperate occasions of bad gun safty ie waving a 243 about like it was a broom handle, having no idea about there bullet choice other than they go bang little or no idea about the distances these bullets travel and then to crown it all off they reckon that they was helped through the various modules of dsc1 by the guy doing the training ie being given the correct answers. They all reckoned it was a doddle to pass and by getting level 1 it would help enable them to a larger calibre rifle in the future. I just feel its not right to bluff the dsc also i dont have any bad feeling towards the new guys coming into stalking as everyone has to start somwhere. Numbnuts is a probably a nice way of calling somone a t$$t im surprised you have not heard of this saying before.
 
Well baguio the event was likley and i have replied to mikes post so hope that wraps up any substance or lack of issues, dont know what went on with you and campylobacter but if you want to tell me im all ears:tiphat:
 
Well baguio the event was likley and i have replied to mikes post so hope that wraps up any substance or lack of issues, dont know what went on with you and campylobacter but if you want to tell me im all ears:tiphat:

Well lets just say that if you ever have the misfortune to catch it, don't go jumping off anything higher than 3 inches. Don't go too far away from a toilet or if you do get too far, make sure that you take a good supply of toilet paper and wet wipes with you! Oh, and get down the dr's lively unless you want to look like the man off the MR Muscle advert within the week? Anyway, I'm sorry, I digress.

I hope that if you did see anyone waiving a rifle around like a broom handle, you gripped them in no uncertain terms! You're never too old to learn or too big to be told the error of your ways!

I'm sure that there are plenty of us on here who have stood next to new shotgun shooters on driven days purely and simply to ensure gun safety (despite them thinking that you're their loader). My arm has gone up on more than one occasion when I have felt that the gun was going to move to a bad place. Sadly some of the older shots think that they don't require a 'loader' when the do. The newbys are quite happy with it. All we can do is try to educate them and maybe speak to shoot captains if you get ignored? This I feel is why the police add mentors to FAC's. It then enables people to get a firearm but ensures they get the experience of being shown the ropes by someone more experienced and hopefully someone who is safe themselves.
 
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243fallow I have been keepering a good few years now and I have always found the new shots into the sport the safest should it be from a clay coach or them doing a DSC course. The ones *you have got to keep an eye on are normally the oldens who think they no it all and carnet be told I've seen things like low shots and accidental discharges. Accidental or not when that triggers pulled theres no stopping that shot or bullet and it's never there fault. May be we should have to have compulsory safety testing and have to do a refresher course every five years this includes a eye test and doctors letter. The lads I no that have done there DSC have put a lot of hard work into getting the certificate.
 
As a matter of interest, I wonder how many people on here have actually been asked by a landowner to see their DSCL 1 or 2 certs?


If you buy your stalking by the outing you do get asked to show a copy of your FAC,DSC & 3rd party insurance.atb Tim
 
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