DSC2 - Wild vs. Park Debate
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Mr Lewis
Well-Known Member
I have signed off all three of a candidates ICR's in a single evening session for me that is not the issue.
Park deer will always be in the park and using the Jelen's teams words put in front of the candidate.
If a park is 1000+ acres and has undulating terrain trees bushes shrubs etc then thats not so bad but if the park is only 250 acres and relatively open and flat then you cannot really stalk the deer and complete PC 1.5
I have shot park deer with Glyn and he even asked me back so I guess I may have been able to walk the walk
Park deer will always be in the park and using the Jelen's teams words put in front of the candidate.
If a park is 1000+ acres and has undulating terrain trees bushes shrubs etc then thats not so bad but if the park is only 250 acres and relatively open and flat then you cannot really stalk the deer and complete PC 1.5
I have shot park deer with Glyn and he even asked me back so I guess I may have been able to walk the walk
Vipa
Well-Known Member
Have to say... This is just the kind of thing that puts the downer on SD for me...
This is an advert not an invitation to critique! surely a service provider can advertise his perfectly legal and above board services without being shot down in flames by self appointed 'experts' or 'critics?'
As has already been said.. if you have had a poor experience with a provider then please share that with the group, just as I would hope you would share a good experience... If you don't like the sound of what's being offered then that is your right to have an opinion BUT.... either keep that opinion to yourself or start an alternative thread to discuss the rights and wrongs of such a service WITHOUT potentially harming the business or reputation of the provider (I'm sure doing so has a legal term and is frowned upon by the courts.)
But... the main thing from my perspective is that those self appointed 'experts' who offer (unasked) their opinion in this way just come accross as arrogant and unfortunately the whole membership then gets tarred with the same brush... Members of other shooting sites won't come onto SD because they assume the membership are all arrogant, stuck up and over opinionated.... a reputation gained from what I can see, from the postings and rantings of a 'self important' few!
This is an advert not an invitation to critique! surely a service provider can advertise his perfectly legal and above board services without being shot down in flames by self appointed 'experts' or 'critics?'
As has already been said.. if you have had a poor experience with a provider then please share that with the group, just as I would hope you would share a good experience... If you don't like the sound of what's being offered then that is your right to have an opinion BUT.... either keep that opinion to yourself or start an alternative thread to discuss the rights and wrongs of such a service WITHOUT potentially harming the business or reputation of the provider (I'm sure doing so has a legal term and is frowned upon by the courts.)
But... the main thing from my perspective is that those self appointed 'experts' who offer (unasked) their opinion in this way just come accross as arrogant and unfortunately the whole membership then gets tarred with the same brush... Members of other shooting sites won't come onto SD because they assume the membership are all arrogant, stuck up and over opinionated.... a reputation gained from what I can see, from the postings and rantings of a 'self important' few!
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
I don't see the problem here.
DMQ is exactly that.. a qualification. It tries to distil down the bare skills to meet a Standard set by some arbitrary body.
If measuring that standard can be done in 1day or 2 days within the rules and regs then what is the problem?
no different if someone shot 3 hinds over two days.
No brownie points for taking your full three years to do it, nor are there brownie points for having shot a 1000 deer before attempting it.
Its a certificate, get over it! You will always get those who see more value in the certificate than the real experience, hence the reason on my DSC1 course there were people who had never fired a rifle let alone shot a deer. They passed. In fact one chap got a very rare 100% across the board.
Case in point:
I am a PADI qualified Divemaster. One step down from Instructor, allows me to work within the industry as both a dive guide and assistant to dive training and courses under an Instructor.
It required me to have done over 60 dives in addition to: Advanced Open Water dive certification including Night diving, drift diving, a navigation course, a rescue dive course, First Aid course, a rescue dive assessment from a boat and another from the shore. First aid assessment on shore and on boat etc etc
DM's are commonly expected to have several years of experience and take a minimum of 6-12 months to complete the post Open Water certification and assessment.
I did it in 5 weeks because I had not much else to do, I was already having a laugh diving pretty much 4 days a week with a mate and figured I may as well do it.
Does it make me a great diver and someone who should be working in the industry looking after your kids whilst they do their first dive..?
No, of course it doesnt.
DMQ is exactly that.. a qualification. It tries to distil down the bare skills to meet a Standard set by some arbitrary body.
If measuring that standard can be done in 1day or 2 days within the rules and regs then what is the problem?
no different if someone shot 3 hinds over two days.
No brownie points for taking your full three years to do it, nor are there brownie points for having shot a 1000 deer before attempting it.
Its a certificate, get over it! You will always get those who see more value in the certificate than the real experience, hence the reason on my DSC1 course there were people who had never fired a rifle let alone shot a deer. They passed. In fact one chap got a very rare 100% across the board.
Case in point:
I am a PADI qualified Divemaster. One step down from Instructor, allows me to work within the industry as both a dive guide and assistant to dive training and courses under an Instructor.
It required me to have done over 60 dives in addition to: Advanced Open Water dive certification including Night diving, drift diving, a navigation course, a rescue dive course, First Aid course, a rescue dive assessment from a boat and another from the shore. First aid assessment on shore and on boat etc etc
DM's are commonly expected to have several years of experience and take a minimum of 6-12 months to complete the post Open Water certification and assessment.
I did it in 5 weeks because I had not much else to do, I was already having a laugh diving pretty much 4 days a week with a mate and figured I may as well do it.
Does it make me a great diver and someone who should be working in the industry looking after your kids whilst they do their first dive..?
No, of course it doesnt.
AllThingsShooting
Well-Known Member
ditto - did my divemaster in the forces...like you it didnt take long based on us working towards it everyday.
Siamsteve that's low. Its comments and personal insults like that that turn a great forum into a unused one
It seems a main point of the whole issue is being missed by differing comments
The point
L2 is candidate driven and based on the candidate Completeing all parts of the portfolio by there own merits
The quoted section ABOVE states other wise and in black & white
Bad show for an organisation that not long ago posted a thread
"AW's .... Who has ever had a bad one"
Seems pot and kettle comes to mind...!!
I wouldn't worry yourself about robust debate of Jelendeer's (often apparently controversialist) postings. They have a strong team of defenders (though I wish they would identify themselves openly) and are quite capable of looking after themselves.
Kudos to them for continuing to push the boundaries of what is permissible within the sometimes fusty establishment.
This offer appears to be rather unique and was posted with an intentionally eyecatching title i.e. "Available: get your DSC2 in only 2 days !"
Unsurprising that it has attracted some strong questions, and produced some informative details about the way DSC2 is administered, which has caused me to re-examine whether it is relevant for me.
I'm sure JDS will have benefited strongly from the interest thus generated.
As I understand things, this is primarily an open discussion forum, not an advertising showcase.
Apropos another post "DMQ is exactly that.. a qualification". It isn't a qualification. It is simply a certificate, i.e. a piece of paper.
DMQ is the name of the limited company which maintains the DSC (Deer Stalking Certificate) standards, which are "linked to the recognised current National Occupational Standards (NOS)". Linked, but but not equivalent. Its a pity that they use the "Q" word in their name as it is potentially misleading.
DSC2 went through a bad patch a few years ago and was exposed as sometimes tarnished and discredited, even occasionally corrupted by cronyism and sharp practice. I was just starting stalking at the time, and was strongly advised by several involved in the system to have nothing to do with it.
I am interested to see whether it can continue to be relevant, particularly in Scotland post 2014. North of the Border it is a dwindling asset, with a shelf life of only a few years, which does not encourage me to undertake it.
I realise that it is the basis of a considerable industry for the professional community, but I am struggling to understand its relevance to the average recreational stalker.
Shame that an offer for an easy option of we will get you to gain your L2 has been turned into a wild v park debate
As an AW
I see no issuses between fair chase to wild for gaining L2 but for the company involved to say they will get you the cull for L2
totally different matter
not a wild v park bebate and never will be
but more about ripping off the system to make money
very sad affair indeed
and looks like it may well make a mockery of the DMQ system of which something I worked hard to be apart of
very sad day indeed
As an AW
I see no issuses between fair chase to wild for gaining L2 but for the company involved to say they will get you the cull for L2
totally different matter
not a wild v park bebate and never will be
but more about ripping off the system to make money
very sad affair indeed
and looks like it may well make a mockery of the DMQ system of which something I worked hard to be apart of
very sad day indeed
6pointer
Well-Known Member
I agree and it looks like Jelen create these posts to drive forward there plans to push the boundaries of what will be accepted with in the deer sector for a quick BUCK and now we have the site saying the Advert is perfectly ok Why? CSL Is the advert really ok or should the admin have a better look at it and remove the advert. Standards need to be kept up and by the look of it from members posts ,this one is a bit on the iffy side.
cwd
Well-Known Member
maybe im wrong but when i passed my level two years ago i was told by my AW you were only allowed to take one animal from a park or a fence ? your other two had to be wild ?
call me a moaner if you want but i think if we let standards fall then level two will lose even more credibility
all this quick fix level two is getting out of hand
regards andy
call me a moaner if you want but i think if we let standards fall then level two will lose even more credibility
all this quick fix level two is getting out of hand
regards andy
6pointer
Well-Known Member
May quote from the DMQ home page.
[h=1]DMQ[/h][h=2]Deer Management Qualifications Ltd[/h][h=3]Setting the standard for wild deer management
admin@dmq.org.uk[/h]
You can email them with your feeling they are not faceless
[h=1]DMQ[/h][h=2]Deer Management Qualifications Ltd[/h][h=3]Setting the standard for wild deer management
admin@dmq.org.uk[/h]
You can email them with your feeling they are not faceless
Virbius
Well-Known Member
Surely the AWs and the Assessors are the key - if they believe the candidate has achieved all the requirements then that candidate will have their portfolio approved, whether in a captive environment or not?
Provided there is consistency and diligence in AWs and Assessors the DSC2 can still maintain integrity and value. A potential issue is that if too many candidates are failed by robust assessment in an intensive training format, then less candidates are likely to pay to take the intensive otion. A knock on effect of this is if the AWs feel pressured to pass unsuitable candidates due to commerical pressures.
Edit: I have an open mind towards the assessment in a captive environment - if the AW is satisifed that the requirements have been met then there is no reason why the candidate should not be passed. Conversely, if some or all of the requirements have not been met then the candidate should be failed. In the future DSC may become compulsory so innovative ways of delivering competence in a captive environment serves a purpose.
Provided there is consistency and diligence in AWs and Assessors the DSC2 can still maintain integrity and value. A potential issue is that if too many candidates are failed by robust assessment in an intensive training format, then less candidates are likely to pay to take the intensive otion. A knock on effect of this is if the AWs feel pressured to pass unsuitable candidates due to commerical pressures.
Edit: I have an open mind towards the assessment in a captive environment - if the AW is satisifed that the requirements have been met then there is no reason why the candidate should not be passed. Conversely, if some or all of the requirements have not been met then the candidate should be failed. In the future DSC may become compulsory so innovative ways of delivering competence in a captive environment serves a purpose.
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So Jelen are getting it in the neck again, seems its now become a crime to run a business, personally don't see a problem provided all the criteria is met after all its the assessor that has the say on whether to grant level 2 or not
not Jelen nor the AW's he uses.
I am sure there must be a demand for this service otherwise they would not be providing it.
This is another one of those threads that brings out the worst in SD, of late there seems to be an element that will bash the pros at every opportunity.
As a pro I am in lucky position where I don't need to advertise but if I did I would be very wary of advertising on here.
I have no nor have I ever had any connection with Jelen, but as a pro comments like ripping of the system to make money anger me, all Jelen has done is offer a service if you don't like it, I don't think you need me to tell you what to do.
By the way Jelen is certainly not the first to use park deer for level 2
not Jelen nor the AW's he uses.
I am sure there must be a demand for this service otherwise they would not be providing it.
This is another one of those threads that brings out the worst in SD, of late there seems to be an element that will bash the pros at every opportunity.
As a pro I am in lucky position where I don't need to advertise but if I did I would be very wary of advertising on here.
I have no nor have I ever had any connection with Jelen, but as a pro comments like ripping of the system to make money anger me, all Jelen has done is offer a service if you don't like it, I don't think you need me to tell you what to do.
By the way Jelen is certainly not the first to use park deer for level 2
Wot I would now be worried about is any one looking to get an ICR passed off by Jelen could be under greater scrutiny because of the practrice they advertise.....I agree and it looks like Jelen create these posts to drive forward there plans to push the boundaries of what will be accepted with in the deer sector for a quick BUCK and now we have the site saying the Advert is perfectly ok Why? CSL Is the advert really ok or should the admin have a better look at it and remove the advert. Standards need to be kept up and by the look of it from members posts ,this one is a bit on the iffy side.
not looking good especially if you have forked out a shed load of dosh to get it
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