I was stalking up in Scotland in Januray and came accross an issue regarding monolithic bullets that break up. I was using Yew Tree bullets in my 6.5 that have worked well for me in my 6.5 creedmoor and that are designed to break off the front part of the bullet. In smaller calibres this is an advantage using monolithis bullets in terms of quick kills. However an issue was raised that the bullets sent particles throught he body of the deer and in a couple of instances penetrated the diaphram and damaged the gut. The issue was with the game dealer rejecting any carcass that had any contamination from the gut. The stalker prefered a bullet that expanded but held together such as a barnes type, while ackowledgeing that the Yew tree bullets were very effective. This has created a dilema. The bullets that break up such as the Yew Tree or Hammer or similar are very effective and allow smaller calibres to perform with Mono bullets but if they mean that a carcass is unsellable they clearly are a problem. What are others experinces? Are some monos that hold together better than others? I have used nosler E tips before that I dint rate, but sako blades were ok. I really like the Yew trees, but if they resu;t in unsaleable carcasses that is a problem! Is this something others have come accross?
Expanding versus disintegrating monolithic bullets
- Thread starter BWH
- Start date
big ears
Well-Known Member
I shoot 6.5x55 and Had some Yewtrees, and heard of others, where the fragments went walkabout into the salad bar. (More than a few times) so stopped using them for that reason. They are very explosive and do a lot of damage on Roe, particularly the TLR. Tried Virtus which were good on Roe but as only 101gr in 6.5 were in my view not powerful enough above 170m on reds.
Have gone to 120gr Sako Blades which are good so far on reds and roes and I think that is where I’ll stick. TTSX are an alternative I know also work.
It’s the SST/ballistic tips vs soft tip lead debate in copper.
Try some until you get the one you want. Before copper I used sierra gamekings so have always favoured expanding over explosive. Others on here who loved SST will want the effect seen in Yewtree but to answer your question the soiling of gut contents was an issue.
Have gone to 120gr Sako Blades which are good so far on reds and roes and I think that is where I’ll stick. TTSX are an alternative I know also work.
It’s the SST/ballistic tips vs soft tip lead debate in copper.
Try some until you get the one you want. Before copper I used sierra gamekings so have always favoured expanding over explosive. Others on here who loved SST will want the effect seen in Yewtree but to answer your question the soiling of gut contents was an issue.
Interesting that you have had a similar experince. It is a bit dissapointing that the dealers wont take the carcasses as the bullets are doing what htey are designed to do and make smaller calibres very effective. I guess it begs the question of whether a larger diameter bullet is required or not? Sound like your experince is that non fragmenting copper in a 6.5 is fine? My experince in other countries is that a rule of thumb became .30 and above for mono bullets. interested to hear others views.
big ears
Well-Known Member
Yes 6.5 and copper work well. As I say I’m using sako blades at the moment but have a friend who uses Barnes TTSX in 6.5 in reds.
The TTSX are what I use in the 7x57 (140gr) all work well.
Copper has been caught up with the light and fast craze which I have to say is not my experience.
120gr for 6.5 and 140gr for 7mm seems about right.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I’ve shot copper got 15 odd years and I wouldn’t use a UK made copper bullet if I was paid too!
Every deer and I’ve seen quite a few as a guide and the carcass looks a hell of a mess.
I prefer to go heavy 145gn fox hunter or 150gn barnes ttsx in 7mm and bullet damage on small deer is negligible
Every deer and I’ve seen quite a few as a guide and the carcass looks a hell of a mess.
I prefer to go heavy 145gn fox hunter or 150gn barnes ttsx in 7mm and bullet damage on small deer is negligible
The correct answer here seems to depend on tolerance to two factors, degree of carcass damage and risk of runners. The two factors are largely exclusive of each other. If you use a very damaging bullet the run distance tends to be less but the carcass damage greater and vice versa. I have experienced gut penetration with Yew Tree and Virtus and also prefer the TTSX that holds together for this reason. My experience with Red and roe deer with the 6.5mm 120 grain TTSX is that the carcass is tidy but the run distance is greater. I still shoot Roe with the 6.5 but if reds are likely use the .30-06 in preference that largely mitigates the runners to an acceptable level.
Ive had this exact issue with petals breaking off and going through the diaphragm. My solution was to aim further forwards however this didn't solve it entirely as copper seems to deviate on strange paths.
And thats the issue - your general mushroom type mono bullets are marginal at best past 250 yards and thats where the likes of the yew tree really starts working well.
The reality is, lead free isn't there yet and the ban has come in far too early. More R+D is required to come up with a middle ground design that does actually work as well as lead.
I've not found anything that comes close to the sierra gamechanger across a range of cartridges with exception to the yew tree which work well at range but of course, you run in to these issues at closer range.
Ronin
Distinguished Member
THAC
Try them
They expand and do not in my experience fragment
Wound channel displays expansion characteristics
They are consistently accurate when a load is found
They perform (so far) as well as my revered GS custom HV bullets that I used exclusively for 20 plus years till supply became unobtainium
Try them
They expand and do not in my experience fragment
Wound channel displays expansion characteristics
They are consistently accurate when a load is found
They perform (so far) as well as my revered GS custom HV bullets that I used exclusively for 20 plus years till supply became unobtainium
Virtus introduced a 110 grain 6.5 along with the 101 grain version.
They also have a 130 grain 6.5 but that's a recent introduction.
In the context of the discussion are you not overstating the 'toxic' aspect of metals other than lead here?
big ears
Well-Known Member
Think those are the highly frangible Merlin’s and eagles?
I was using the osprey as they held together better
Through experience I fear it’ll be ‘noticed’ by those who would make our lives difficult, and become another stick to hit us with. Copper is a poisonous substance, to what degree is irrelevant to the aforementioned. Personally I couldn't give a rats behind, about lead or copper. If the meat is bruised, don’t eat it. I have been using non fragmenting copper for a long time (as I was compelled to by my landowner/s) and am very, very happy with it.
The monoliths that don’t break up can do the same thing. I have had ttsx take some huge deflections in carcass which obviously has a high risk of internal contamination and hitting other deer that are not obviously in the line of fire.
I have shot ttsx, blades, tlr, eco green et al. Issues with all of them. Either deflection of solids or shards in the carcass. And the bloody things run further. Wonderful.
I have shot ttsx, blades, tlr, eco green et al. Issues with all of them. Either deflection of solids or shards in the carcass. And the bloody things run further. Wonderful.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
A monolithic bullet well designed, stays in one piece, penetrates through an animal and causes a sufficiently large wound channel to kill it quickly.
Modern rifles and sighting systems are accurate enough to allow a sufficiently competent rifleman to put such a bullet in the right place on the intended target.
I don’t really understand the need for bullet that breaks up on inpact. All this does is reduces the penetrating energy of main part of the projectile. The little fragments that break off into different pathways. They may cause additional damage outwith the core wound channel, but question the need. If you have a decent primary wound channel in the correct place why do you need any more.
All the additional bits do is to just add carcass damage.
Modern rifles and sighting systems are accurate enough to allow a sufficiently competent rifleman to put such a bullet in the right place on the intended target.
I don’t really understand the need for bullet that breaks up on inpact. All this does is reduces the penetrating energy of main part of the projectile. The little fragments that break off into different pathways. They may cause additional damage outwith the core wound channel, but question the need. If you have a decent primary wound channel in the correct place why do you need any more.
All the additional bits do is to just add carcass damage.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Copper and Iron are toxic in certain situations where the bodies ability to regulate the levels is affected by disease. But both are essential metals for every day metabolism and good health. Frankly you would die without them.
Look at any vitamin and minerals supplement - they all contain iron and copper.
Lead on the other hand has no known beneficial effects on human, animal or plant metabolism. It is why the general position of medical authorities is that no level lead is safe. Even if ingested in very small quantities it will be harmful over time.
Just read a box of cartridges and look at the potential conditions that can result from exposure to lead.
Lead effect on health is chronic rather than acute, but science is now coming to understand the underlying effects of lead on health.
A lot of the effects are subtle - reduced mental, reproductive or immune capacity are all linked to lead exposure. Much of effects have quickly been covered over as the costs or implications of dealing with the problem are far too high.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
What calibre and weight TTSX were you using?
It’s amazing how different your experience is to mine and I can’t explain why unless our shot placement differs substantially.
I’m 22 years into non lead and I feel that I see better straight line penetration, faster kills, shorter run distances and less meat damage overall than with the lead core bullets I used previously. These were the Hornady BTSP, the Speer Hot Cor, the Nosler BT and Partitions (small numbers with the partition) and the Hornady SST. They were largely in 150g and 165g in .308 Win and 162 SST in 7mm. I wouldn’t go back to lead if the ammo was free if I’m honest.
For the record I’m not doubting the accuracy of what you report in any way. It’s just interesting that there is almost complete disagreement in our experiences.
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