FAC carrying criteria
- Thread starter Hunter300
- Start date
I also have a photo of the relevent details on my phone.
Scapegoat
Well-Known Member
No need
The comms hub at the vast majority of forces will have someone with out of hours access to the National Licensing database who will be able to check your details, and if you're in your own car the Police National Computer will have a flag on your number plate to tell them you have a FAC.
The comms hub at the vast majority of forces will have someone with out of hours access to the National Licensing database who will be able to check your details, and if you're in your own car the Police National Computer will have a flag on your number plate to tell them you have a FAC.
Hunter300
Well-Known Member
Thanks, so do I, was just wondering what the actual law states. I can’t seem to find it…
This bit, The same as your Driving Licence i.e. you need to produce it if requested.
Don't bet on that in the South West.
I'd previously looked into it, following a bad experience, and I don't have the details to hand. However, I believe the situation is that a police person can demand to see your FAC or SGC and if you don't produce it, they can seize the gun(s) you are carrying. That said, as others have pointed out, it is perfectly easy for them to establish that you hold a FAC if you're not carrying it. Essentially, you'll be fine if the policeman isn't a prick. However, quite a lot of them are.
Scapegoat
Well-Known Member
Section 48 of the 1968 Act is kind of vague:
(1)A constable may demand, from any person whom he believes to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production of his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate.
(2)If a person upon whom a demand is made under this section fails to produce the certificate or to permit the constable to read it, or to show that he is entitled by virtue of this Act to have the firearm, ammunition or shot gun in his possession without holding a certificate, the constable may seize and detain the firearm, ammunition or shot gun and may require the person to declare to him immediately his name and address.
(3)If under this section a person is required to declare to a constable his name and address, it is an offence for him to refuse to declare it or to fail to give his true name and address.
So. It looks like the legislation says that you should be able to produce the certificate at any time to a constable who believes that you have firearms or shotguns in your possession.
It's very strangely worded, because it doesn't actually lay out an offence of "failing to produce" the certificate, but simply states that if you don't, the constable is empowered to seize the firearms/shotguns. Note it only says "MAY"!
It then says the constable MAY require you to declare your name and address.
The only offence mentioned is para 3, which is for failing to declare your name and address when required to do so.
"But, but........" I hear you say, that seems really daft!
Take it logically through the most likely scenario:
1. A police officer sees you have a gunslip on your back seat and believes you have a firearm or shotgun with you
2. They ask to see your certificate.
3. You tell them it's in the drawer in the kitchen
4. You give your name and address at the officer's request
5. The officer checks via the control room and is given the news that you have a valid and current certificate
6. Everyone goes home happy after a quick check of the serial number which is cross indexed to you AND your vehicle via the various computer systems.
Even in 1968 when the legislation was drawn up, the office MAY have seized the firearms and used the details you provided to make the various checks before returning the firearms to you.
However, if Johnny Sh!tbag is seen with a firearm and can't produce a certificate, and can't or won't assist with details, then he's arrested on suspicion of unlawful possession. Sorted!
(1)A constable may demand, from any person whom he believes to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production of his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate.
(2)If a person upon whom a demand is made under this section fails to produce the certificate or to permit the constable to read it, or to show that he is entitled by virtue of this Act to have the firearm, ammunition or shot gun in his possession without holding a certificate, the constable may seize and detain the firearm, ammunition or shot gun and may require the person to declare to him immediately his name and address.
(3)If under this section a person is required to declare to a constable his name and address, it is an offence for him to refuse to declare it or to fail to give his true name and address.
So. It looks like the legislation says that you should be able to produce the certificate at any time to a constable who believes that you have firearms or shotguns in your possession.
It's very strangely worded, because it doesn't actually lay out an offence of "failing to produce" the certificate, but simply states that if you don't, the constable is empowered to seize the firearms/shotguns. Note it only says "MAY"!
It then says the constable MAY require you to declare your name and address.
The only offence mentioned is para 3, which is for failing to declare your name and address when required to do so.
"But, but........" I hear you say, that seems really daft!
Take it logically through the most likely scenario:
1. A police officer sees you have a gunslip on your back seat and believes you have a firearm or shotgun with you
2. They ask to see your certificate.
3. You tell them it's in the drawer in the kitchen
4. You give your name and address at the officer's request
5. The officer checks via the control room and is given the news that you have a valid and current certificate
6. Everyone goes home happy after a quick check of the serial number which is cross indexed to you AND your vehicle via the various computer systems.
Even in 1968 when the legislation was drawn up, the office MAY have seized the firearms and used the details you provided to make the various checks before returning the firearms to you.
However, if Johnny Sh!tbag is seen with a firearm and can't produce a certificate, and can't or won't assist with details, then he's arrested on suspicion of unlawful possession. Sorted!
Scapegoat
Well-Known Member
Stay classy
The way this has actually gone, in my experience, is that at part 5. The officer decides to seize your guns and makes you wait on the roadside for ages whule they get an armed response car, because they are inadequately trained / incompetent. You have to abandon your shooting trip/weekend, spend an entire day driving back home to collect the certificate, take it to the distant provincial police station and reclaim your guns, which hopefully have not been damaged by the careless and negligent way in which the police generally treat them (see threads on damage to guns by the police).
6. Everyone goes home - the police happy at having screwed up your weekend, and you disgruntled. It's not a crime but it is a monumental pain in the arse.
Scapegoat
Well-Known Member
Good grief.
Perhaps it might have been easier if you had your certificate in your glove box.........
It certainly would. And is why I usually make sure I have at least a copy with the guns. I'd just add to that, there was no point at all where the policeman doubted for a second that the gun in question was legally held and being transported for a legitimate purpose.
From BASC's website:
"The law allows police to seize your firearms if you are unable to produce a certificate on demand and it is always advisable to carry original certificates with you. Although the evidence of a copy should be acceptable in many instances, the legal right to seize and detain your guns remains unless you produce the original."
I normally take the originals of my FAC/SGC with me when going stalking, but also carry photocopies of both on my phone.
I have actually been stopped by the police when on the way to go stalking in the wee hours.
Going along a small country lane I passed a car going the other way and realised from the reflective panels that it was likely a police car. Sure enough, 30 seconds later I saw blue flashing lights behind me so, when safe to do so, pulled over onto the side of the road.
The young police constables (one male, one female) walked up to the driver's door, shone their torches at me, and said they had pulled me over following a recent spate of robberies at remote houses where the perpetrators drove around in 4x4's.
Continuing to shine their torches into my face, they questioned me as to what I was doing driving around in a car "registered to a Mrs Gunn?"
I replied "I am Mr Gunn - Mrs Gunn is my wife."
This response, which apparently hadn't been anticipated, left them somewhat crestfallen.
They then shone the torches into the back of the car and were somewhat taken aback when spotting a firearm in a slip on the back seat.
"Why do you have a weapon in the car?", they inquired.
"We are on our way to go deer stalking" I replied.
They hastily returned to their car, called back to the station, realised I had a FAC, and sent me on my way - but not before my passenger, a recently retired Brigadier who ran the stalking, gave them a right rollicking for potentially delaying us from meeting clients!
Duly chastened, they waved us on our merry way.
"The law allows police to seize your firearms if you are unable to produce a certificate on demand and it is always advisable to carry original certificates with you. Although the evidence of a copy should be acceptable in many instances, the legal right to seize and detain your guns remains unless you produce the original."
I normally take the originals of my FAC/SGC with me when going stalking, but also carry photocopies of both on my phone.
I have actually been stopped by the police when on the way to go stalking in the wee hours.
Going along a small country lane I passed a car going the other way and realised from the reflective panels that it was likely a police car. Sure enough, 30 seconds later I saw blue flashing lights behind me so, when safe to do so, pulled over onto the side of the road.
The young police constables (one male, one female) walked up to the driver's door, shone their torches at me, and said they had pulled me over following a recent spate of robberies at remote houses where the perpetrators drove around in 4x4's.
Continuing to shine their torches into my face, they questioned me as to what I was doing driving around in a car "registered to a Mrs Gunn?"
I replied "I am Mr Gunn - Mrs Gunn is my wife."
This response, which apparently hadn't been anticipated, left them somewhat crestfallen.
They then shone the torches into the back of the car and were somewhat taken aback when spotting a firearm in a slip on the back seat.
"Why do you have a weapon in the car?", they inquired.
"We are on our way to go deer stalking" I replied.
They hastily returned to their car, called back to the station, realised I had a FAC, and sent me on my way - but not before my passenger, a recently retired Brigadier who ran the stalking, gave them a right rollicking for potentially delaying us from meeting clients!
Duly chastened, they waved us on our merry way.
maximus otter
Well-Known Member
Ex-PC here: I carry a photocopy of my FAC with me at all times while stalking. This has my address blacked out, so I could even - in the massively unlikely event I ever felt the need - show it to some fuming "anti" to avoid further escalation.
If this didn't prove sufficient to a patrolling officer, then a quick radio call by them to the Force Control Room would soon establish my bona fides.
maximus "Not a prick" otter
If this didn't prove sufficient to a patrolling officer, then a quick radio call by them to the Force Control Room would soon establish my bona fides.
maximus "Not a prick" otter
Touche' Mange Tout.
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