FAC carrying criteria

[Dunwaters]

Section 48 of the 1968 Act is kind of vague:

(1)A constable may demand, from any person whom he believes to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production of his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate.

(2)If a person upon whom a demand is made under this section fails to produce the certificate or to permit the constable to read it, or to show that he is entitled by virtue of this Act to have the firearm, ammunition or shot gun in his possession without holding a certificate, the constable may seize and detain the firearm, ammunition or shot gun and may require the person to declare to him immediately his name and address.

(3)If under this section a person is required to declare to a constable his name and address, it is an offence for him to refuse to declare it or to fail to give his true name and address.


So. It looks like the legislation says that you should be able to produce the certificate at any time to a constable who believes that you have firearms or shotguns in your possession.

It's very strangely worded, because it doesn't actually lay out an offence of "failing to produce" the certificate, but simply states that if you don't, the constable is empowered to seize the firearms/shotguns. Note it only says "MAY"!

It then says the constable MAY require you to declare your name and address.

The only offence mentioned is para 3, which is for failing to declare your name and address when required to do so.

"But, but........" I hear you say, that seems really daft!

Take it logically through the most likely scenario:
1. A police officer sees you have a gunslip on your back seat and believes you have a firearm or shotgun with you
2. They ask to see your certificate.
3. You tell them it's in the drawer in the kitchen
4. You give your name and address at the officer's request
5. The officer checks via the control room and is given the news that you have a valid and current certificate
6. Everyone goes home happy after a quick check of the serial number which is cross indexed to you AND your vehicle via the various computer systems.

Even in 1968 when the legislation was drawn up, the office MAY have seized the firearms and used the details you provided to make the various checks before returning the firearms to you.

However, if Johnny Sh!tbag is seen with a firearm and can't produce a certificate, and can't or won't assist with details, then he's arrested on suspicion of unlawful possession. Sorted!

In legal terms the words “may” and “ shall” can be interchangeable.
So the law says that you must produce your certificate on demand or your firearm may/ shall be seized.
That rare creature called common sense would indicate that if you were able to convince the officer that you had a certificate but could not produce it at this time and were able to provide proof of identity, you should be allowed to continue your journey.
As previously suggested, keep copies of your certs on your phone as backup, but keep your certs with you too.

 

[User00040]

No need, but the police can seize your firearms if they don't believe you have an FAC.

I try to carry mine, but generally don't fret if I've left it at home.

I leave mine in the house unless required for buying/selling something.

Police Scotland have the SHOGUN system which can indirectly flag you have an FAC/SGC through vehicle reg (please correct me if this is not correct).

 

[Tim.243]

Good day. Does anyone know what the law say about carrying your FAC while driving to or from a shoot.
Question really is, if your FAC is at home while you’re out, will you get in trouble?

The easy option is to carry it despite what others say as, yes you can have a picture argue the toss you don't need it but what you will want to do is be on your way, but remember there will be a reason you are stopped and it won't be because your FAC is at home but something else, late at night driving like a noodle mot out back light out. People get stopped or have to stop all the time and don't have a SGC/FAC

I cross the road to go foxing from my house so take the rifle in a slip and kit also my FAC zipped up in an inside pocket,
Also often stand 40 yds inside on farm land with my truck in the gate way (rifle on sticks) calling foxes, again FAC zipped away.
When people come pigeon/duck/roost shooting with me I tell them to bring it, it is not difficult!

You have to jump through enough hoops to get one so why not take it on the times you go out with the rifle/shotgun.

 

[willie_gunn]

In legal terms the words “may” and “ shall” can be interchangeable.

I can't speak to Irish Law but, having worked on numerous UK public sector contracts, depending on whether expressed in first or second person, "Will" conveys an obligation, "Shall" can convey either an obligation or a future intention, whereas "May" conveys discretion.

"The system will...."
"The system shall...."
"The system may..."

These statements would be interpreted quite differently.

 

[martin_b]

No need

The comms hub at the vast majority of forces will have someone with out of hours access to the National Licensing database who will be able to check your details, and if you're in your own car the Police National Computer will have a flag on your number plate to tell them you have a FAC.

I used to travel into work really early in the morning (3-4am ). I took a route through Oxted and Esher, home of some of the most expensive houses in the UK and several premier league footballers. I got stopped several times just for a check, and the fact i had a FAC flag on my vehicle was mentioned, not sure if that was cause or effect, but to be fair the police were always polite.

 

[DVS1]

I also have a photo of the relevent details on my phone.

Likewise here

 

[Apthorpe]

Sadly our bona fides didn't include being an ex-PC.

I used to travel into work really early in the morning (3-4am ). I took a route through Oxted and Esher, home of some of the most expensive houses in the UK and several premier league footballers. I got stopped several times just for a check, and the fact i had a FAC flag on my vehicle was mentioned, not sure if that was cause or effect, but to be fair the police were always polite.

Did you often get stopped on other roads, you know, where the normal people lived?

One would hate to think the police might not be entirely impartial.

 

[timbrayford]

Thanks, so do I, was just wondering what the actual law states. I can’t seem to find it…

It doesn't

 

[Stalker62]

Police Scotland have the SHOGUN system which can indirectly flag you have an FAC/SGC through vehicle reg (please correct me if this is not correct).

It is correct.

FAC/SGC holders have been on the PNC for years now.

What information is held on the Police National Computer?​

The Police National Computer holds information relating to people-of-interest to UK Law Enforcement Agencies because they:

• Have convictions or cautions for criminal offences (Including youth warnings/reprimands).
• Are wanted by authorities.
• Possess a firearm certificate.
• Have court orders made against them.
• Are currently, or have at some point been, missing.
• Have absconded from certain institutions (such as prison).
• Have been disqualified from driving by a court.
• Have a driver’s record held at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA).
• Are subject to the legal process, such as waiting to appear in court.

 

[Dalua]

In legal terms the words “may” and “ shall” can be interchangeable.

It that true? Usually words in law mean something close to their meaning in general English usage - and 'he may' and 'he shall' seem to me markedly different in meaning.

I'd suggest that 'he may demand' and 'he may seize' mean that under S48 he has authority to do so, but that he doesn't have to.

'Shall' instead, as a third-person use ('he shall...'), would mean that the law requires that the thing must happen: he would be obliged to demand the certificate, and further obliged to seize the firearm/s if it were not produced. In my experience, as in that of others, this is clearly not how most constables would read the Act.

 

[Dalua]

Ex-PC here: I carry a photocopy of my FAC with me at all times while stalking. This has my address blacked out, so I could even - in the massively unlikely event I ever felt the need - show it to some fuming "anti" to avoid further escalation.

If this didn't prove sufficient to a patrolling officer, then a quick radio call by them to the Force Control Room would soon establish my bona fides.

It's an interesting idea. However, a photocopy is still not what the Act requires; and from that perspective a pic on your 'phone would be just as good/bad.
Indeed, nowadays I guess it would be an imprudent constable who didn't radio in details for find out anyway: possession of an apparently-valid original paper certificate is no guarantee that the certificate has not been revoked.

 

[long_range_rob]

Like condoms. I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

[finnbear270]

Would you have "Good Reason"?

 

[reiver]

I got stopped at 3am in Barnard castle after driving a mate back from the hospital in there hire car .During Appleby fair week Coppers just asked my name and address and it came back over the radio that I had a Fac
Never asked if I had anything with me .
Just a routine stop as apparently a lot of travelers use hire cars in there crimes

 

[Foxyboy43]

Most rifle /gun bags have a pocket on them my licence is stored in this pocket so when I go stalking it is always with me.

Ahah!
I did the same for many years - until I lost the damned fac. Some time later and a lot of frantic searching ending in a replacement fac and the associated hassle - I discovered that said gunslip usefully had a pocket on both sides. Can you guess what was in one of them?

 

[hogey]

No need

The comms hub at the vast majority of forces will have someone with out of hours access to the National Licensing database who will be able to check your details, and if you're in your own car the Police National Computer will have a flag on your number plate to tell them you have a FAC.

Is that a fact or do you just think that.
Do you have anything official to your understanding ?
Thank you

 

[malmick]

Would you have "Good Reason"?

What for, a condom?

 

[Stalker62]

Is that a fact or do you just think that.

It is a fact.

See #29.

Any Police Officer has 24/7 access to the PNC.
Every FAC/SGC holder is on the PNC.

 

[Dunwaters]

It that true? Usually words in law mean something close to their meaning in general English usage - and 'he may' and 'he shall' seem to me markedly different in meaning.

I'd suggest that 'he may demand' and 'he may seize' mean that under S48 he has authority to do so, but that he doesn't have to.

'Shall' instead, as a third-person use ('he shall...'), would mean that the law requires that the thing must happen: he would be obliged to demand the certificate, and further obliged to seize the firearm/s if it were not produced. In my experience, as in that of others, this is clearly not how most constables would read the Act.

The cert holder has no discretion, the officer has.
“Shall” means no discretion for either party, “may“ introduces a discretionary element, in this case for the officer, but not the certificate holder.
The certificate holder is required to produce a certificate on demand.
Sorry if I worded it wrongly, I was thinking of the OP‘s question.

 

[Dalua]

The certificate holder is required to produce a certificate on demand.

It doesn't seem to me to say that at all.
It says if the holder can't produce the certificate, the constable may seize the firearm/s.