Any general thoughts on Fenlander dogs for mixed stalking use and maybe the odd pheasant days? I was potentially looking at a gwp but have been offered a fenlander recently and it was mentioned they might be a little easier to manage. Of course needs to settle as family friendly 90% of the time. There really doesn’t seem to be much info out there on them other than one website
Fenlander dogs
- Thread starter Xone262
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WTF is a "Fenlander " how long have these been breeding true to type and when they become a " breed" . IMHO and i have owned GWP and would be very unlikely to own another! For deer and odd pheasant days ( you wont ever get those two disciplines working in perfect harmony btw unless one or more task is limited) is the " Labrador" Heck if they lived long enough you could likely put one through a degree LOL
shakey jake
Well-Known Member
look like a load of mongrels, how he can claim anything about them when they arent even close to a type yet.
you might get lucky but i wouldnt waste a penny on them
you might get lucky but i wouldnt waste a penny on them
I already have an ESS which will remain my main shoot dog. This might be a good option based on what I’ve seen but clearly also a bit of a punt so need to look more into the background. Confirmed what I thought in not much really known about them so might hold out and take more time looking into different options
Obviously they aren't a breed and hardly the very beginnings of one with only first and second crosses so it seems rather pretentious to give them the name 'Fenlander' although the term 'Pennine Pointer' appears to have been accepted. As a purpose-bred cross-bred there is no reason why they shouldn't be handy, no different to the way lurchers have been bred for years.
Siggy
Well-Known Member
A friend as a Fenlander as a pet- it's a biddable energetic dog and I can't see any problems with deer stalking with the right training and introduction. My friend got a bit of grief of the guy on the website because it wasn't a Weimaraner/ESS cross from his kennels and he didn't want her calling it a Fenlander. Looking at the website it looks like he hasn't finished tweaking the breed, so IMO he's got a bit of cheek giving it a breed name if it isn't breeding true, but hey ho. If he's started mixing in (English) pointer blood it might make the breed less suitable for some styles of deer work.
It’s a mongrel. Like a cockapoo or any other designer dog. No litter with be the same if it’s out of different matings.
It’s marketing, trademarking the name. A way to add value.
I don’t fall out with mixing breeds to try and exploit traits. That’s how we got the recognised breeds we have today. But this is a very small example and very much in its infancy.
The pennine pointer has become something up. North. However these all appear to be of the same standard. A first cross and no attempt
at future lines from the litter.
My neighbour has a cocker cross lab. Looks like a small black lab. That peaked my interest as I loved my cocker and my lab is like having a camel in the house in comparison.
Just get what you want and don’t worry what people think.
It’s marketing, trademarking the name. A way to add value.
I don’t fall out with mixing breeds to try and exploit traits. That’s how we got the recognised breeds we have today. But this is a very small example and very much in its infancy.
The pennine pointer has become something up. North. However these all appear to be of the same standard. A first cross and no attempt
at future lines from the litter.
My neighbour has a cocker cross lab. Looks like a small black lab. That peaked my interest as I loved my cocker and my lab is like having a camel in the house in comparison.
Just get what you want and don’t worry what people think.
shakey jake
Well-Known Member
i just read most of his web site, he thinks he did his dog harm by tripple dosing with petshop wormer!! what sort of breeder uses pet shop wormer? not sure id want a ferret off him after reading his stuff. in twenty years he might have a breed now he is just adding dogs to a gene puddle and hoping the pups work
Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a whack job I would steer well clear.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
There is a lot to said for first crosses. But you do need to look at the parents though.
You get a lot of hybrid vigour and this is reflected in costs of medical insurance - about half that of a pedigree.
Initial cost is also substantially less.
As to the end product and how it behaves etc - a lot is down to the training and relationship between handler and the dog. A lot of cross breeds are highly intelligent and require training that is based on bringing out their better traits, rather bullying into submission.
There is a lot of merit in pure pedigrees, but if you look at really serious working dogs used by mountain rescue, search dogs for police or bomb disposal dogs with the army, most are of quite mixed breeding.
You get a lot of hybrid vigour and this is reflected in costs of medical insurance - about half that of a pedigree.
Initial cost is also substantially less.
As to the end product and how it behaves etc - a lot is down to the training and relationship between handler and the dog. A lot of cross breeds are highly intelligent and require training that is based on bringing out their better traits, rather bullying into submission.
There is a lot of merit in pure pedigrees, but if you look at really serious working dogs used by mountain rescue, search dogs for police or bomb disposal dogs with the army, most are of quite mixed breeding.
I think you should get a Buckaroolander dog.
I’m the only breeder in the country of this rare breed. They look very similar to a mongrel from the local Pikie yard but they are actually a very noble breed. Biddable, energetic, with an excellent nose. Ideal in the field or as a pet. £1500 each. pm for more details
I’m the only breeder in the country of this rare breed. They look very similar to a mongrel from the local Pikie yard but they are actually a very noble breed. Biddable, energetic, with an excellent nose. Ideal in the field or as a pet. £1500 each. pm for more details
He won't have a 'breed' in 20 years, not with so many breeds added to the mix. Victorian gentlemen achieved such things in their own lifetimes by having huge resources, kennels, stables and tenant farmers to rear and walk pups/dogs. It's very hard/virtually impossible for one man to do in the 21st century.
merlin
Well-Known Member
The dog in my avatar was an Irish Sports Hound....
....if you believe my farmer mate I got her off
. She was a cross breed: half lab, quarter Irish water spaniel, quarter standard poodle. For the avoidance of doubt, the label applied in the first sentence was ironic before saying gets a bat up their nightie. She was a cross, and we all knew it. I suspect even she did.
And she was a fantastic gundog, and even graced the front cover of Shooting Times once. (Alas she is no more, 13 & 1/2 years old with compounding health issues saw her taken to the vet one last time earlier this year).
Crossbreed may or may not fantastic working dogs - the same can be applied to 'true' breeds, all of which stem from selective breeding at some point. I'm not cheerleading for either BTW, my current working dig is a springer spaniel (...and certifiable loon......
)
....if you believe my farmer mate I got her off
. She was a cross breed: half lab, quarter Irish water spaniel, quarter standard poodle. For the avoidance of doubt, the label applied in the first sentence was ironic before saying gets a bat up their nightie. She was a cross, and we all knew it. I suspect even she did.And she was a fantastic gundog, and even graced the front cover of Shooting Times once. (Alas she is no more, 13 & 1/2 years old with compounding health issues saw her taken to the vet one last time earlier this year).
Crossbreed may or may not fantastic working dogs - the same can be applied to 'true' breeds, all of which stem from selective breeding at some point. I'm not cheerleading for either BTW, my current working dig is a springer spaniel (...and certifiable loon......
)countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I thought it generally takes about 8 gens to get the breed/line breeding true.
In russia they done a study and were breeding domesticated foxes after 8 gens, sure it was something similar for the Korthrans Griffon too
But for that to happen u have to start out with a very clear plan of wot ur looking for, and back in the old days anything not meeting the standard would go for a swimming lesson inside a sack with a brick for company, (wrong colour, poor temperment, too small/large, poor scenting etc = swimming lessons.
As kieth said very few have the size of kennels to do it nowadays or the will to sterilise or PTS any animal not up to standard.
Just look at his photo 2 out of the 4 look similar other 2 completley different looking 1 just looks like a springer.
To be honest i can't even see the logic of crossing the 2 breeds, ( i get the idea with lab/ess or lab/gwp, generally to make the lab hunt a bit harder and calm the harder hunting breed down a bit) but a springer to a pointer ur only going to end up with a dog that ranges too far to shoot over and to near to be a true HPR, if ur dog even holds a point, most likely just going to be a fast healthy fairly wild dog
If u want a slower shorter ranging pointer there already is breeds like the brittany spaniel or spinone or bracco
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Bred in Norfolk, bet they can swim fast with 8 toes on each foot
Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
I’ve seen a lot of ‘pennine pointers’ over the years and honestly would only give kennel room to a few over that time. They do go hard and keep going (and can push other dogs to keep going by way of competition) but relatively few people will put a good lab to a good pointer - it’s usually mediocre to mediocre. Even speaking to people who have had them for a long time - they are realistic in the percentage that ‘make it’.
If they were actually consistently good - we would have some in the kennels, I’ve never felt under gunned with labs.
Weimeraners - never seen one that even approaches being an ‘alright’ working dog (to be fair I’ve seen relatively few) so not sure why you would think they might bring something to the table rather than a German Pointer cross but that has already been done so he can’t claim a novelty factor.
Problem these days seems to be that with social media you can claim pretty much anything whereas in the past you had to earn recognition.
My basic thought on most things is that you won’t go far wrong with a good lab. Depending how you bring them up they will do pretty much anything you might want, plenty to choose from and it’s hard to cock them up. They might not be fashionable but they are used widely for a good reason.
If they were actually consistently good - we would have some in the kennels, I’ve never felt under gunned with labs.
Weimeraners - never seen one that even approaches being an ‘alright’ working dog (to be fair I’ve seen relatively few) so not sure why you would think they might bring something to the table rather than a German Pointer cross but that has already been done so he can’t claim a novelty factor.
Problem these days seems to be that with social media you can claim pretty much anything whereas in the past you had to earn recognition.
My basic thought on most things is that you won’t go far wrong with a good lab. Depending how you bring them up they will do pretty much anything you might want, plenty to choose from and it’s hard to cock them up. They might not be fashionable but they are used widely for a good reason.
spot on with that statement!
Don't forget the webs between them.
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