Firearms Law - Setting the Agenda

cjm1066

Well-Known Member
A consultation by the Government of Firearms Law is awaited, with the prospect of closer "alignment" of shotgun and firearm “controls” (i.e. treating all shotguns more like Section 1 firearms) as an option under consideration. While we can be sure the shooting organisations will respond might that be too late as by then the Government will have set the agenda, it will be very easy for our sector to be seen as luddites concerned only with our own interests.

Might a more proactive approach work, with 516,500 of us in England & Wales holding a firearm and or a shotgun certificates, and we along with everyone benefiting from those aspects of the legislation that ensure public safely.

The key question is does the law and the way it is administered deliver this? The answer is a categoric NO. The Keyham inquest documents this:

serious failure to heed and apply the 2016 Home Office guidance​
Reflecting the culture within the FELU at the time, an insufficient degree of professional curiosity was demonstrated by the FEO and FLS.​
The decision to return the shotgun and licence to the perpetrator in July 2021 was fundamentally flawed and as a result failed to protect the public and the peace.
The officer investigating the skate park assaults in September 2020 should have noted that the perpetrator was a firearms certificate holder and taken immediate steps to alert the FELU to the incident.
The use of the Pathfinder scheme in this instance was wholly inadequate in reducing the perpetrator’s future offending.
On reviewing the perpetrator’s suitability to retain the shotgun certificate, the FEO ought to have shown a greater degree of professional curiosity in obtaining and evaluating further information. The case was not passed to the FLM for review which was against Home Office guidance.

There was a serious failure at a national level by the government, Home Office and National College of Policing to implement the recommendation from Lord Cullen’s Report in 1996 arising out of the fatal shootings in Dunblane, to provide training for FEOs and the subsequent recommendation in Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of the Constabulary’s Targeting the Risk Report in 2015 for an accredited training regime for FEOs. The most recent statutory guidance from the Home Office (2021) has failed

That’s just a flavour of the report available at: Maxine Davison, Lee Martyn, Sophie Martyn, Stephen Washington and Kate Shepherd: Prevention of future deaths report - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Alongside this we have the Bedfordshire Police and Crime Commissioner John Tizard who has written to the Home Secretary after the murder of 3 family members with a shotgun obtained via a forged certificate.

It is clear to me that there should be a national database of firearm licence holders or the ability of police services to be able to interrogate each other’s databases.​

Even Parliament recognises that the Police are unable to administer the law efficiently; they amended the law in the Policing and Crime Act 2017 to extend certificate life by 8 weeks if the applicant has applied in good time. It is not all the Police Forces who are inept, Cleveland can administer a renewal in 35 days and a grant in 48 days – yet the average is 77 and 94 days with Cumbria taking over 170 days. Finance isn’t an issue as the fees for shotguns and firearms certificates have recently been increased.

The proposals for closer "alignment" of shotgun and firearm “controls are thus likely to impose extra burdens on a police service struggling to cope with the existing law and reduce efficiency and public safety.

The key difference between shotguns and firearms is that firearms are licensed individually, is this beneficial – in the hand of a spree killer one gun is enough. Do more guns in a household represent more danger, perhaps in term of security as a target for theft? No as we already have guidance in the Firearms Security Handbook 2020 https://assets.publishing.service.g...f0bf63ab9e5/Firearms_Security_Manual_2020.pdf that recommends a tiered approach with 3 different levels of security depending on individual circumstances.

Firearms are also licensed individually according to “good reason” thus creates additional bureaucracy in that if a shooter wants to swap one rifle for another, the Police have to administer this process imposing on average a 85 day delays on a process that should be as simple as changing a car for a similar model. This could be delivered in accordance with the Guide on Firearms Licensing Law November 2022 https://assets.publishing.service.g...f4a71cf385/Firearms_Guide_-_November_2022.pdf which for sporting purposes has identified 4 activities each encompassing a range of rifles (Vermin & ground game and other small quarry, Fox and other medium quarry, Deer and other large quarry & Dangerous Game). Target shooting also encompasses a range of disciplines and if a shooter want to change to another discipline offered by his club, is Police involvement beneficial – this is perhaps akin using the car analogy like changing from a SUV to an estate or sports car?

We face the prospect of closer "alignment" creating huge additional burdens for a Police service that although well intentioned will not deliver public benefits. Merging the two systems of licensing to remove needless bureaucracy alongside a using a national database of licence holders would create greater efficiency and release a huge amount of Police time to address the operational failures identified in the Keyham and Bedfordshire spree killings!

Alas the Governments agenda is flawed, but it could so easily be directed at the operational changes already identified, that would deliver benefits to the public and hopefully an easier 1 for 1 variation system, as I doubt the general public would understand why changing one rifle for another require the level of Police involvement currently required.

How to deliver this? Contact your shooting organisation asking them to work together and set the agenda, contact your MP - please spend more time on these tasks that responding on SD..
 
The answer is simple.

One Firearms license with different categories like a driving license.

Air weapons
Shotguns
Rifles - small game and vermin - ie rimfire
Vermin, foxes small deer -
Deer and wild boar
Dangerous Game
Target shooting - with all its various disciplines.

Focus - as stated in Home Office Guidelines - is the suitability of the candidate. I do think we need to go back to referees actually having to fill in a form with a signature certifying information given is true and fair.

If threshold’s of competence are required there needs to be a clear threshold and testing required, with tests having the option of fail if you don’t pass the standard. Any such qualifications need to be clearly recognised by the licensing authorities and used consistently.
 
If shotguns are to be section 1 there will be no extra burden on the police because most of us that haven't got a fac will have to hand them in even those that do have an fac will still have to hand shotguns in
It will take months on end or years to get shotguns put on fac checks good reason for each one etc so if this happens we well and truly buggered
 
A consultation by the Government of Firearms Law is awaited, with the prospect of closer "alignment" of shotgun and firearm “controls” (i.e. treating all shotguns more like Section 1 firearms) as an option under consideration. While we can be sure the shooting organisations will respond might that be too late as by then the Government will have set the agenda, it will be very easy for our sector to be seen as luddites concerned only with our own interests.

Might a more proactive approach work, with 516,500 of us in England & Wales holding a firearm and or a shotgun certificates, and we along with everyone benefiting from those aspects of the legislation that ensure public safely.

The key question is does the law and the way it is administered deliver this? The answer is a categoric NO. The Keyham inquest documents this:

serious failure to heed and apply the 2016 Home Office guidance​
Reflecting the culture within the FELU at the time, an insufficient degree of professional curiosity was demonstrated by the FEO and FLS.​
The decision to return the shotgun and licence to the perpetrator in July 2021 was fundamentally flawed and as a result failed to protect the public and the peace.
The officer investigating the skate park assaults in September 2020 should have noted that the perpetrator was a firearms certificate holder and taken immediate steps to alert the FELU to the incident.
The use of the Pathfinder scheme in this instance was wholly inadequate in reducing the perpetrator’s future offending.
On reviewing the perpetrator’s suitability to retain the shotgun certificate, the FEO ought to have shown a greater degree of professional curiosity in obtaining and evaluating further information. The case was not passed to the FLM for review which was against Home Office guidance.

There was a serious failure at a national level by the government, Home Office and National College of Policing to implement the recommendation from Lord Cullen’s Report in 1996 arising out of the fatal shootings in Dunblane, to provide training for FEOs and the subsequent recommendation in Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of the Constabulary’s Targeting the Risk Report in 2015 for an accredited training regime for FEOs. The most recent statutory guidance from the Home Office (2021) has failed

That’s just a flavour of the report available at: Maxine Davison, Lee Martyn, Sophie Martyn, Stephen Washington and Kate Shepherd: Prevention of future deaths report - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Alongside this we have the Bedfordshire Police and Crime Commissioner John Tizard who has written to the Home Secretary after the murder of 3 family members with a shotgun obtained via a forged certificate.

It is clear to me that there should be a national database of firearm licence holders or the ability of police services to be able to interrogate each other’s databases.​

Even Parliament recognises that the Police are unable to administer the law efficiently; they amended the law in the Policing and Crime Act 2017 to extend certificate life by 8 weeks if the applicant has applied in good time. It is not all the Police Forces who are inept, Cleveland can administer a renewal in 35 days and a grant in 48 days – yet the average is 77 and 94 days with Cumbria taking over 170 days. Finance isn’t an issue as the fees for shotguns and firearms certificates have recently been increased.

The proposals for closer "alignment" of shotgun and firearm “controls are thus likely to impose extra burdens on a police service struggling to cope with the existing law and reduce efficiency and public safety.

The key difference between shotguns and firearms is that firearms are licensed individually, is this beneficial – in the hand of a spree killer one gun is enough. Do more guns in a household represent more danger, perhaps in term of security as a target for theft? No as we already have guidance in the Firearms Security Handbook 2020 https://assets.publishing.service.g...f0bf63ab9e5/Firearms_Security_Manual_2020.pdf that recommends a tiered approach with 3 different levels of security depending on individual circumstances.

Firearms are also licensed individually according to “good reason” thus creates additional bureaucracy in that if a shooter wants to swap one rifle for another, the Police have to administer this process imposing on average a 85 day delays on a process that should be as simple as changing a car for a similar model. This could be delivered in accordance with the Guide on Firearms Licensing Law November 2022 https://assets.publishing.service.g...f4a71cf385/Firearms_Guide_-_November_2022.pdf which for sporting purposes has identified 4 activities each encompassing a range of rifles (Vermin & ground game and other small quarry, Fox and other medium quarry, Deer and other large quarry & Dangerous Game). Target shooting also encompasses a range of disciplines and if a shooter want to change to another discipline offered by his club, is Police involvement beneficial – this is perhaps akin using the car analogy like changing from a SUV to an estate or sports car?

We face the prospect of closer "alignment" creating huge additional burdens for a Police service that although well intentioned will not deliver public benefits. Merging the two systems of licensing to remove needless bureaucracy alongside a using a national database of licence holders would create greater efficiency and release a huge amount of Police time to address the operational failures identified in the Keyham and Bedfordshire spree killings!

Alas the Governments agenda is flawed, but it could so easily be directed at the operational changes already identified, that would deliver benefits to the public and hopefully an easier 1 for 1 variation system, as I doubt the general public would understand why changing one rifle for another require the level of Police involvement currently required.

How to deliver this? Contact your shooting organisation asking them to work together and set the agenda, contact your MP - please spend more time on these tasks that responding on SD..
There are tens of thousands of SD members on here so hopefully your thread will inspire a few more to get involved.

Below is an article from BASC's Bill Harriman in last week's Shooting Times that covers many of your well made points.

As regards people getting involved I have seen the numbers engaging in campaigns starting to increase again since circa 2023 after many years of apathy but generally it's 1-5% of BASC's 150,000 members getting involved in BASC calls to action.

As mentioned in the BASC article the 15 members of the British Shooting Sports Council (BSSC) work together as one voice in policy discussions with the Home Office on firearms law and licensing.

The 15 BSSC members are:
  • Association of Professional Shooting Instructors
  • British Association for Shooting and Conservation
  • Clay Pigeon Shooting Association
  • Countryside Alliance
  • Fifty Calibre Shooters Association UK
  • Gun Trade Association
  • Historical Breechloading Small Arms Association
  • Institute of Clay Shooting Instructors
  • Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain
  • National Small Bore Rifle Association
  • National Rifle Association
  • Sportsman’s Association
  • UK Deactivated Weapons Association
  • UK Practical Shooting Association, & Vintage Arms Association.
  • Vintage Arms Association
So, for anyone reading this that is not a member of any of the above and wants to support the fight ahead please join one or more of the above that best fits your shooting interests.
 

Attachments

What the OP has written shows that Keyham was the fault of the Police failing to protect, the shooting orgs should take the initiative, have full page adverts in the national news papers, stating how Keyham happened, making it difficult for the government to justify further licensing restrictions, especially following the increase in fees were to train licensing staff and property resource them.
 
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What the OP has written shows that Keyham was the fault of the Police failing to protect, the shooting orgs should take the initiative, have full page adverts in the national news papers, stating how Keyham happened, making it difficult for the government to justify further licensing restrictions, especially following the increase in fees were to train licensing staff and property resource them.
You mean be proactive:rofl:
 
As usual, we (the shooting fraternity) we’re discussing the positive effect of the rumours that moderators would be taken off ticket - yet what has actually happened since that was heard two years ago is - they are still on ticket, we got a price increase which they didn’t have to justify being to improve the service and we are now facing shotguns being more difficult to keep/obtain.

The system is completely moronic and f*cked and they are getting thier way as I see more and more people packing it in saying “don’t be bothered anymore”……

And the shooting orgs are toothless - they can say what they like on here but it’s just hot air - they haven’t had a significant win on anything - not one single thing.

Regards,
Gixer
 
@Conor O'Gorman, How about addressing the above suggestion of using some of the fighting fund to fight?
What would a few full page newspaper ads / statements of FACT cost?
Who would be the target of such an advert and how would you seek to influence them?

Target Joe public? Would you really expect them to suddenly sympathise with the injustice you feel regarding firearms licensing proposals? I suggest that would be a complete waste of money.
 
Who would be the target of such an advert and how would you seek to influence them?

Target Joe public? Would you really expect them to suddenly sympathise with the injustice you feel regarding firearms licensing proposals? I suggest that would be a complete waste of money.
Personally the only way i feel is to lobby mp's, but seeing as labour have such a majority it's ****ing into the wind
 
Who would be the target of such an advert and how would you seek to influence them?

Target Joe public? Would you really expect them to suddenly sympathise with the injustice you feel regarding firearms licensing proposals? I suggest that would be a complete waste of money.
I'd vey much agree with this.

Full page adverts as described would draw a lot of public attention back to the incidents in question, which is more likely to just increase general public pressure for 'restrictions on guns', whilst simultaneously ****ing off the Police and HO and making any kind of reasonable dialogue with them much harder.

I can't think of many things that would be more counter-productive to be honest.

Personally the only way i feel is to lobby mp's, but seeing as labour have such a majority it's ****ing into the wind

I know at least one minister in the current government is a prolific deer stalker. Whilst in the main you're probably right that Labour are more urban in tone it's not a universal rule.

BASC get a lot of stick for their lobbying activity on here, as its perceived as a waste of money - but lobbying is (sadly) the most proven method to influence government policy, especially for niche interest groups. If I were in the position of giving BASC advice on this though, I suggest that it is worth trying to expand out that activity to start educating and influencing at Permanent Undersecretary and Senior Civil Servant grade in relevant departments - these people tend to persist across multiple governments and are the ones who put proposals into ministers hands. In aggregate they are a powerful bunch, but in my experience most of them are quite pedestrian thinkers. The good news there is that I think it's hugely unlikely there is an organised conspiracy against the shooting community (I've never seen much evidence of an organised anything), but the bad news is that they are a hard group to reach and influence as they are, quite rightly, fairly well insulated against lobbying activity by both rules and culture.
 
Who would be the target of such an advert and how would you seek to influence them?

Target Joe public? Would you really expect them to suddenly sympathise with the injustice you feel regarding firearms licensing proposals? I suggest that would be a complete waste of money.
At least if the shooting organisations gave the public the indisputable facts, those who cared enough to read them would be able to make up their own opinions.
As it is with the hysteria in the MSM about firearms at the moment, Joe Public is drip-fed anti-shooting propaganda, and that propaganda encompasses folks like us who are law abiding and comply with all the firearms laws.
Successive governments have withheld some stats that don't support their agenda.
 
If shotguns are to be section 1 there will be no extra burden on the police because most of us that haven't got a fac will have to hand them in even those that do have an fac will still have to hand shotguns in
It will take months on end or years to get shotguns put on fac checks good reason for each one etc so if this happens we well and truly buggered
Most previous transitioning seems to have been accompanied by automatic grant of an FAC to retain without the need to prove need. Examples, Brocock self contained air cartridge ban (s5) automatic right to FAC as long as you applied within the transition period , s58.2 pistol change to s5, same automatic right to FAC as long as you applied during the transition period. Same should follow for shotguns but you are correct, major issue occasional users. Clay pigeon club membership numbers will skyrocket.
 
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