First Aid Training...Opinions please?

[pheasant sniper 1]

and no, I'm not a business, just someone who believes a little training goes a long way having been the healthcare professional dealing with casualties that could of/should of survived with a little basic intervention

Im a huge believer in First Aid qualifications.

Myself and all the lads i work with have done the three day course and yearly refreshers.

But im also a believer in it being tought by professionals.

What i dont like is people with some knowledge who start offering courses then exclaim how much better each course gets from client feedback over time.

Im not implying any of the comments to you as i have no idea wether your duly qualified or not despite being in a medical profession.

Its one thing having been trained but completely diferent skills in writing a sylabus and teaching it to a required level

Loads of courses getting offered on here lately with no alliance to any governing body.

Bad advice can be more dangerous than no advice

 

[AviatingJoe]

Im not implying any of the comments to you as i have no idea wether your duly qualified or not despite being in a medical profession.

Its one thing having been trained but completely diferent skills in writing a sylabus and teaching it to a required level

Loads of courses getting offered on here lately with no alliance to any governing body.

Without piling out a CV onto the directory, its difficult to give the reasons that I am justified and qualified to advise/instruct on this subject I suppose. But being firstly a medic, both an instructor and assessor of first aid, plus an avid outdoorsman, I think the transferrable knowledge and skills leave me in quite good stead to impart knowledge to others.

Loads of courses on here lately with no alliance to governing body... Can you point me in the right direction to see these threads?

The thing with all of these courses...I'm going in blind... is that if the subject is taught under no illusions, it is not certificated in such a way that makes people believe they have a nationally recognised qualification etc etc, the law is that anyone can teach anything on to other people without accreditation to a governing body.
I would happily have my syllabus reviewed by a governing body, be assessed and invigilated every year and give out a certificate at the end of the course with the logo of some education accreditation system that no one cares about because I am not putting forward to teach a HSE approved EFAW / FAW qualification, merely impart an awareness of how to sustain anothers life until professional intervention can access them... but the costs of all this then need to be passed on to the student..?

As I said, I'm just dipping my toe in the water to see what interest there is in further learning outside the E/FAW courses

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Without piling out a CV onto the directory, its difficult to give the reasons that I am justified and qualified to advise/instruct on this subject I suppose. But being firstly a medic, both an instructor and assessor of first aid, plus an avid outdoorsman, I think the transferrable knowledge and skills leave me in quite good stead to impart knowledge to others.

Loads of courses on here lately with no alliance to governing body... Can you point me in the right direction to see these threads?

The thing with all of these courses...I'm going in blind... is that if the subject is taught under no illusions, it is not certificated in such a way that makes people believe they have a nationally recognised qualification etc etc, the law is that anyone can teach anything on to other people without accreditation to a governing body.
I would happily have my syllabus reviewed by a governing body, be assessed and invigilated every year and give out a certificate at the end of the course with the logo of some education accreditation system that no one cares about because I am not putting forward to teach a HSE approved EFAW / FAW qualification, merely impart an awareness of how to sustain anothers life until professional intervention can access them... but the costs of all this then need to be passed on to the student..?

As I said, I'm just dipping my toe in the water to see what interest there is in further learning outside the E/FAW courses

Hi AJ

I wasnt and am not having a pop mate but why would anybody want to pay or go on a course that doesnt carry a recognised qualification/ certificate?

Just what would make a course without any recognised accreditation worth doing when you can take one that would leave a paying client to add it to his own CV where it may possibly aid his prospects

I am absolutely not questioning your own skills but questioning why anybody would take time away from work at a cost then at further cost pay for a course that leaves them without a recognised certificate/qualification.

In a nutshell what makes your course for a paying client so much more beneficial than a recognised course ?

 

[AviatingJoe]

No no I didn't think you we're having a pop. Sorry if I came across as ranting.
These are the questions I need to be asked and the answers I need people to fully understand.
As stated in previous posts, I cannot say that any first aid is any different to the fundamentals in efaw and faw.
However they do not prepare the first person on scene with the skills to sustain the casualty for a long time, prepare the casualty for a difficult extraction on foot, prepare a decent site for a helicopter to land, be able to diagnose further complications and prevent them occurring etc etc. it's bespoke for remote and rural, more inaccessible type first aid. If someone is already a qualified first aider it is incumbent on the individual to further himself and be as prepared as he can for all situations... People have different opinions on the matter, and many aren't doing courses just to bolster a cv. First aid and immediate intervention should be about care for others not cv writing really ...

 

[Sharpie]

I'm with Pheasant Sniper on this.

I wouldn't attend any such course unless it was presented by somebody registered and regulated by the Health and Care Professions Council, preferably a Paramedic.

Did you know that until quite recently Paramedics were unregulated ?

My GF was responsible for getting this changed, now they are regulated, the term "Paramedic" is protected in the same way that it is illegal to call yourself a doctor, nurse etc. unless you really are one, and Paramedics may be struck off the register for professional misconduct, incompetence etc.

 

[Yorric]

Going back to what was said earlier about the difference between local & remote locations - don't forget that in many remote places there is no mobile phone coverage (I live in one!!!) so you can't expect rapid response if you can't communicate!

Treatment if the sick & injured in such remote locations is more than is taught these days on St John's type courses - It is not just FIRST AID it's much more - like AJ is talking about.

The more remote you are & the poorer the communications - the longer time to get help & this results in additional knowledge & training being required.

I believe that education more tailored to remote environments would be of great value to us.

Plus 1 on including First Aid in schools.

Minus 1 on the cost of courses!!! - One of the reasons why there are so few people around with First Aid training is the high cost of courses.

Ian

 

[Heym SR20]

Yorric +1

what we need are mountain first aid courses. I have done a couple specifically for mountain sports ( paragliding) and a large part is not only keeping the victim stable, but also managing the recovery. In many cases help will be a long time coming and the decision will have to be made to try and get the victim off the hill, vs going for help and getting recovery services in vs waiting in the hope that somebody will comment and find you. Not easy decisions to make, but having the base knowledge / training does make it easier when he time comes.

 

[devon deer stalker]

This is the one i will be advertising shortly, a qualified first aid instructor will deliver the course and aim it towards the deer stalker, cost will depend on numbers and hire of the venue but will be based in Devon and around the £90 mark.

DESCRIPTION

[FONT=Georgia,Georgia][FONT=Georgia,Georgia]Where an organisation’s risk assessment of First Aid needs identifies that there is a requirement for Emergency First Aid at Work practitioners, then this Award for Emergency First Aid at Work satisfies the requirements of the regulatory body for First Aid - the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and HSENI (Northern Ireland).

All learners will have the skills and knowledge to provide the organisation with Emergency First Aider’s that can provide treatment to their casualties in a prompt, safe and effective manner.

[/FONT][/FONT]DURATION

[FONT=Georgia,Georgia][FONT=Georgia,Georgia]A minimum of six contact hours in the classroom, consisting of practical and theoretical

activities, plus some pre-course activity could be required.

[/FONT][/FONT]SYLLABUS

[FONT=Georgia,Georgia][FONT=Georgia,Georgia]A range of subjects is covered including:

• What is Emergency First Aid? • Legislation • Responsibilities

• Action in an emergency • Primary survey • Secondary assessment

• The respiratory system • Resuscitation • Disorders of respiration

• Adult basic life support • Foreign objects • Disorders of the circulation

• Minor burns and scalds • Epilepsy • Wounds and bleeding

[/FONT][/FONT]CERTIFICATION

[FONT=Georgia,Georgia][FONT=Georgia,Georgia]Assessment is ongoing by the instructor, along with a multiple choice question paper, and a three year qualification will be issued to those who satisfy the criteria. In addition, the HSE and HSENI strongly recommend that all students undergo an annual refresher programme of three hours.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Apache]

I wasnt and am not having a pop mate but why would anybody want to pay or go on a course that doesnt carry a recognised qualification/ certificate?

Because what you need for these situations moves away from the scope of first aid. Some of the things you may need to do in such situation may go completely against the teachings on a recognised first aid course. Therefore the entire syllabus would not be recognised. Once you start 'treating' people you move into a bit of a grey area.

Hypothetical situation - you are stalking in the highlands with a friend. He falls badly and breaks his leg below the knee. You have no phone coverage, and no means to raise the emergency services. First aid would be to deal with the bleeding and keep patient calm waiting for the ambulance. Some first aid courses teach you to use the other leg as a splint. Unless you are very strong or can go back and get a vehicle to your friend that is no good. Applying splints etc to get your friend mobile may be the only option. Now what if you really cock this all up and your friend loses his leg as a direct result of your actions? You could probably claim exemption as you were acting as a good Samaritan. BUT you show that you have your recognised certificate things start moving back up the food chain.

No-one can train you well for these situations in a short period of time - that is the problem. You'll never be truly competent in these things, because you hope you will never need to use the skills. Therefore [in my opinion] you gain as much knowledge as you can for these situations so you can handle them as well as possible. To fully examine and treat a fracture requires a medical degree, and years of further training. Why do you think they get doctors out to nasty accidents?

They are two very separate issues, not to be confused:

1. A recognised first aid course to get you a nice certificate for your toilet wall or CV
2. The acquisition of knowledge that may save yours, or a friends life.

 

[FGYT]

You gotta be joking Duncan!
I offered my business mending Garden Machinery to my nephew. 21yrs old, no job. I said give me £5k for it when you've saved it up from the profits.
It would take him less than a year to own his own profitable business. I even said I'd train him
NO NO NO NO NO he doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Living off the state instead.
Can you imagine what he'd do if faced with some blood that wasn't his

Yes it can be like that But as i have done it since young and taught it in various guises as well as in outdoor and odd locations ( Army Cadet Instructor, PADI Diving instructor etc with het extra relevant tickets to teach 1st aid and in the case of Diving application of Oxygen only in Dive incidents )

if you get em young and interested its a lot of fun and it only takes a couple of nuggets of info to take root to save a life decades in the future

we had more Cadets come on Weekend camps if they knew the Cadet Army Training team was coming and laying on a Full Battlefield first aid simulations with full make up n fake blood sucking chest wounds, stretcher move (tactically with Kit lol ) not bad for kids as young as 12 etc usually boasting who got the most fake blood on their kit at the end of the day

and some of those Kids I would have trusted a lot more than a lot of adults who have the a one day At work classroom Qualification.

Obviously you dont start at 6 with massive hemorrhages but plenty of very young kids save lives every year by following simple things they learnt even if its spotting mummy isnt well and bringing her the phone.


and Diving from Portland harbour our boat often got Tagged By Whiskey Bravo the rescue Helo there to practice casualty pick up of the back of the boats always fun when they come over like a puppy in front of the boat asking if you want to play


That said moving any serious casualty is a fairly specialized job and in UK we have Helo cover for most of it so first option is always stabilize and work on getting the Pros in to get them out Stepping much above this is a fairly serious undertaking
that said i know there are a few first aid courses run for Bushcrafters that help focus 1st aid on the likely issues with sharp things in the woods ie an axe in the Shin or burns etc

PS i will be Teaching my Kids as much as i can and do show them any cuts etc i get ( knife making can be fun ) and how i deal with them I cant any longer Cert them as i don't keep my tickets up to date anymore but they will do some Certs and late will get a mate who is Mil paramedic to go over more advanced stuff

oh they also have to learn to shoot

ATB

Duncan

 

[AviatingJoe]

Many thanks all,

Keep the feedback coming, this is a straw poll of interest and need.

 

[Moray Outfitting]

AJ - I appreciate thought behind the thread and wish you all the best with it. as will be clear from previous ( lengthy! ) posts, its an area I feel strongly about.

Dont panic everyone - I'm not going to launch into 'one of those' posts - if the trauma of reading through my previous notes on first aid side of things has faded from memory feel free to look them up.

Apache - per you last. I think that was very well put And nicely capture an important aspect. Not least it is very rare you see any vet giving any sort of praise to medical students! ( and vice versa it must be said! ).

Seriously, I'd urge people to read what Apache said and factor that in to their consideration.

Its a topic lots of people are drawn to, but relatively few do very much about.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

This is the one i will be advertising shortly, a qualified first aid instructor will deliver the course and aim it towards the deer stalker, cost will depend on numbers and hire of the venue but will be based in Devon and around the £90 mark.

DESCRIPTION

[FONT=Georgia,Georgia][FONT=Georgia,Georgia]Where an organisation’s risk assessment of First Aid needs identifies that there is a requirement for Emergency First Aid at Work practitioners, then this Award for Emergency First Aid at Work satisfies the requirements of the regulatory body for First Aid - the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and HSENI (Northern Ireland).

All learners will have the skills and knowledge to provide the organisation with Emergency First Aider’s that can provide treatment to their casualties in a prompt, safe and effective manner.

[/FONT][/FONT]DURATION

[FONT=Georgia,Georgia][FONT=Georgia,Georgia]A minimum of six contact hours in the classroom, consisting of practical and theoretical

activities, plus some pre-course activity could be required.

[/FONT][/FONT]SYLLABUS

[FONT=Georgia,Georgia][FONT=Georgia,Georgia]A range of subjects is covered including:

• What is Emergency First Aid? • Legislation • Responsibilities

• Action in an emergency • Primary survey • Secondary assessment

• The respiratory system • Resuscitation • Disorders of respiration

• Adult basic life support • Foreign objects • Disorders of the circulation

• Minor burns and scalds • Epilepsy • Wounds and bleeding

[/FONT][/FONT]CERTIFICATION

[FONT=Georgia,Georgia][FONT=Georgia,Georgia]Assessment is ongoing by the instructor, along with a multiple choice question paper, and a three year qualification will be issued to those who satisfy the criteria. In addition, the HSE and HSENI strongly recommend that all students undergo an annual refresher programme of three hours.
[/FONT][/FONT]

Hi Richard

Im sorry, but the six contact hours for £90 is where i disagree

Somebody else then comes along and does it for £60 in four hours

I cannot see when people offer courses in this manner the paying client recieves the same knowledge as that taught on regulated courses...

Apache,

Very well put, my reasoning and sorry if it didnt come across as intended by a certified course was the level and nature of training recieved..

The fact anybody can throw a few hours your way and call it a course without being regulated ( how do you know this person is credible ) could be a muppet failed to get into medical school, has some knowledge and read a few SAS books..

How do you know???

Im all for further training and 100% behind First Aid but sceptical of non regulated courses

Regards

Terry

 

[sikadog]

Recently I did a first aid Emergency at Work course with a local company that covered explosions, penetrations, fall, breakages and how to cope if there was no emergency help available, Cost £50 for a 1 day course

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Recently I did a first aid Emergency at Work course with a local company that covered explosions, penetrations, fall, breakages and how to cope if there was no emergency help available, Cost £50 for a 1 day course

Any advances on £50

With all that added extra curiculum theres no way anybody is going to tell me this is right !!!

 

[sikadog]

What makes you think its wrong

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

What makes you think its wrong

Theres a reason the regulated courses run for the time they do and even at the duration they take its still hard work to recieve and intake all that knowledge/information

Im waiting for somebody to say theyve just done a course for £40 in half a day which proves the point im trying to make about non regulated courses and the fact anybody can offer anything they like calling it a course

Imo extremely dangerous having recieved flawed or rushed info when the whole purpose is in extending somebody's chances of survival

 

[finnbear270]

Terry, I can do a course for NOWT!,...... My kid brother teaches paramedics, He's also ex theatre knockout bloke & ex Helimed, crew.

 

[sikadog]

The course was done by a recognised training company who do courses all over the country they train mountain rescue groups and emergency callout companies.
The day before my course they were in North West Wales looking for a young girl that went missing.
Just because they are very efficient dont knock them until you have been on one of their courses.
I spend about 10 days a year on different courses and on most of them I could teach the trainer but not on this one I actualy learned something.

 

[Heym SR20]

I've done a lot of mountain sports, mostly paragliding but a fair amount of winter mountain walking, off piste skiing etc. I have done a some of very good first aid courses, run by fully qualified first aiders, but aimed more at practical stuff for casualties suffering major trauma in remote locations. Whilst they have covered the major first aid requirements, there have also been very good bits on incident management and get the appropriate rescue involved. I have had to use this training in anger, most notably with a guy who turned up on a mountainside with a paraglider he had bought off the Internet. He claimed he was an ex paratrooper and thus knew how to fly one. We suggested he didn't fly until he had some proper training. ( I used to instruct and its a good two week traing course to fly one safely). I had been flying for about an hour when the sky started to get very angry looking and we all got out the sky ASAP. I landed by the car park, only to watch that muppet take off, suffer a major collapse when the gust front hit him and smacked into the hillside. A couple mates up on the hillside, first aid trained went to his help, he was still alive, but in a bad way. I was the only one in phone signal so got the emergency services, and relayed information from the scene of casualty via two way radios. There was no helicopter available for at least three hours, local mountain rescue was tasked on another big job, but could provide one lady, plus mountain stretcher etc. nearest ambulance arrived, but no ways was that going to get close, and neither for that matter were the ambulance team (dressed in light weight boots and over weight). The casualty was a good 45 mins walk up 1,000ft of rugged terrain. Between the four of us by the car park, and the two up the hill, plus info from the rescue services, we got him down to the ambulance and to hospital. He had a broken pelvis and a fair few bashed up bits inside, but I think he made a good recovery but he has never been seen paragliding again.

I have also been involved in incidents where the outcome was not so good. What the courses gave me and others, was the base information to allow to make best of what we had in front of us, and for us to know that we done the best that we could given the circumstances when the outcome was n't so good.