First or Second focal plane Rifle scope

[Steff]

The fad for FFP is not at all recent.
Until the rising of zoom factors above 4, i.e. 6, 8 and now 10, all high class European manufactures produced their scopes with FFP reticles. Only export models were equiped with SFP.

Why people are happy with their SFP scopes and are not experience any of the issues I cannot say.
The technical fact remains. What people make of it for themselves is up to them.

 

[John Gryphon]

As an interest what do the really pro shooters use IE the military long range sniper lads in Iraq/Afghanistan etc ffp sfp? Whether SAS/Green Berets blah blah.

 

[Steff]

I cannot speak for each and every unit out there, but the general trend in military applications is towards FFP. If it is for the POI issue I am hammering on or for the ranging possiblities with FFP, I don't know.

 

[levigsp]

Most true snipers still used fixed power! as for vari power it depends on the user and the issuing force. I know Zeiss and IOR make a vari power 2fp scope for sniper use as doo one or two others, but I also know that some make 1fp for the same use. Same as everything its down to choice.

 

[Blackwood Outdoors]

If they are so bad, why do so many hunters and target bashers and snipers use them? and pray tell me what people were using before the recent fad for ffp? just interested in your views. I know people here and all over the world who have no problems, yes an odd scope might not work as it should, but 99% do. First focal I have sent two scopes back with faults in two years, do I consider all ffp scopes bad not at all. I can say with hand on heart that I own and use a tasco, Hawk, Niko, 2 Meoptas, Ziess, Schmitt and they all holt their point of aim exact regardless of how many times I alter the mag. Sorry but practical experience in the field over many years tells me what is and is not and you wont convince me.

Well I've used a multitude of SFP scopes over the years in combination with ballistic software, airguns, rimfire, centerfires and changes in magnification and I have never had any problems let alone inches of movement on changing magnification off its setting and back again.. I always use SFP more versatile for my needs all-round.

 

[levigsp]

Well I've used a multitude of SFP scopes over the years in combination with ballistic software, airguns, rimfire, centerfires and changes in magnification and I have never had any problems let alone inches of movement on changing magnification off its setting and back again.. I always use SFP more versatile for my needs all-round.

Exactly what Ive been saying.

 

[levigsp]

The fad for FFP is not at all recent.
Until the rising of zoom factors above 4, i.e. 6, 8 and now 10, all high class European manufactures produced their scopes with FFP reticles. Only export models were equiped with SFP.

Why people are happy with their SFP scopes and are not experience any of the issues I cannot say.
The technical fact remains. What people make of it for themselves is up to them.

Do you know why? have you not thought that in Europe we use scopes in very poor light eg moon light, so illuminated scopes are better, 1fp was easier to illuminate.

 

[mak]

SFP does not have a change in impact point (not the top ones anyway).
FFP can be used as a range guide, for example if you take the shoulders of a Roebuck at say 70cm which fits between the two cross hairs on a ret 4a which has a subtension between the horizontal posts of 70cm @ 100m, then if you zoom up or down the sub tension of the reticle remains the same, however in SFP when zooming the sub tensions change, so not as easy to use as a range guide unless you know all of the sub tensions at specific magnifications.

 

[palo]

I never could get on with ffp scopes.
The older hunting type reticles were ok at low mag but too thick at high mag.
The newer type reticles that I looked through were ok at high mag but useless at low mag because they were so fine.

 

[Steff]

Do you know why? have you not thought that in Europe we use scopes in very poor light eg moon light, so illuminated scopes are better, 1fp was easier to illuminate.

Reticles have been in FFP long before illuminated reticles were invented. The fat posts on FFP reticles were still visible in very low light. Only with the rising of illuminations SFP became relevant as the post became too fine and stayed so also at max. mag.
It's all recollactable looking at the model history of Zeiss (Varipoint) and Swarovski (High-Grid).

 

[levigsp]

Reticles have been in FFP long before illuminated reticles were invented. The fat posts on FFP reticles were still visible in very low light. Only with the rising of illuminations SFP became relevant as the post became too fine and stayed so also at max. mag.
It's all recollactable looking at the model history of Zeiss (Varipoint) and Swarovski (High-Grid).

Thank you for the info.

 

[enfieldspares]

On my Zeiss 3-9x36 Diavari-C (an SFP I now know it as) the instructions, I think, always said to zero with it set at 9x maximum magnification. I've never much worried though if I did zero with it at 4x as the poi didn't move if I then increased the magnification.

 

[bluesako]

im not bothered if its affp or sfp, i have six good scopes swarovski ziess mk 4 loopys, i just shoot em, never had a problem with any, and couldnt tell you which are ffp or sfp, they work bs.

 

[hybridfiat]

1st ffp is ONLY if you intend to use the ranging function of the scope. Then the user has to putvup with a teeny tiny crosshair at low power and a thick one at high power.
2nd ffp works for everyone else. Even if the user wants to range, just set the scope at its ranging power.

 

[army-medic]

Just to remind people that you can accurately range a target with SFP as long as you have the specific magnification applied; often the max or mid-magnification.

Obviously FFP can range a target at any magnification.

 

[Muir]

FFP for targets at unknown ranges. SFP fpr targets at known ranges -or you use the manufacturer's recommendation at to where the increments (MOA or MIL) are accurate. Usually this is at the highest power but not always.~Muir

 

[ejg]

Most true snipers still used fixed power! as for vari power it depends on the user and the issuing force. I know Zeiss and IOR make a vari power 2fp scope for sniper use as doo one or two others, but I also know that some make 1fp for the same use. Same as everything its down to choice.

Which unit uses fixed power scopes? Maybe in the seventies when stalkers used 4x32. Sorry I was recently at a special forces shoot/training, from several European countries +Canada, Seals/Rangers from the US and not a single fixed power scope. Why would anyone prefer a fixed?

PRS competitions in the US, is anyone running SFP? Isn't the absolute majority running FFP. FFP is the way to go if you need to correct a first round miss. Spotting scope also has a ffp reticle and spotter or other shooter can measure correction value and pass on to the shooter, at any magnification and unknown distance. Target shooters don't really need all that, they correct all the time anyway, that is why they often don't notice a little change in POI with change in Magnification. Is there a scope manufacturer who guarantees that their sfp scope has zero change with mag change? I know some big companies have quite some tolerance and say that is normal.

edi

 

[levigsp]

Which unit uses fixed power scopes? Maybe in the seventies when stalkers used 4x32. Sorry I was recently at a special forces shoot/training, from several European countries +Canada, Seals/Rangers from the US and not a single fixed power scope. Why would anyone prefer a fixed?

PRS competitions in the US, is anyone running SFP? Isn't the absolute majority running FFP. FFP is the way to go if you need to correct a first round miss. Spotting scope also has a ffp reticle and spotter or other shooter can measure correction value and pass on to the shooter, at any magnification and unknown distance. Target shooters don't really need all that, they correct all the time anyway, that is why they often don't notice a little change in POI with change in Magnification. Is there a scope manufacturer who guarantees that their sfp scope has zero change with mag change? I know some big companies have quite some tolerance and say that is normal.

edi

In 2013/14/15 we had United nations armed exercises up he in Caithness, some of it was conducted on ground I have shooting on. There were Snipers from at least 7 countries attending at Strathmore estate and I was privy to some of them before and after. Likewise the tanks and aircraft etc were there in abundance. To the point, I saw fixed power scopes and vari power on the guns and asked what they used as we couldn't get close to watch and we was told, that once they were classed as a sniper, most made there own choice in scope, so I was repeating what I was told by them men doing it.

 

[Laurie]

Comments on : First or Second focal plane Rifle scope for Long range Target shooting - F Class

As is so often the case on forums, the OP and his question becomes totally forgotten. Would those rabitting on about what PRS competitors and snipers use please read the OP's post. He isn't a PRS competitor, or a sniper, or anything else. In a crisp 16-word post, he asks about long-range target shooting and F-Class at that.

As for variable scopes

Target shooters don't really need all that, they correct all the time anyway, that is why they often don't notice a little change in POI with change in Magnification.

only someone who doesn't compete in top level F-Class matches would say that. Sure, competitors tend to stick to one scope setting in a match but sometimes reducing light levels or mirage getting up make a change in power setting unavoidable. ....... and believe me, these people shooting into the very small small targets used in the discipline notice any change in POI that arises outside of wind changes. The philosopher's stone that everyone seeks is perfect elevation for 20 shots over a 30 or 40 minute match at 1,000-1,200 yards, every one 'on the mid-point waterline' and on some ranges in some conditions that exactly what people achieve in addition to sub half-MOA grouping.

 

[Laurie]

Oh ... and I should add:

Go to a UK Benchrest Association 600 or 1,000 yard match at Diggle and all bar the very occasional competitors uses an SFP variable, and there is no in-match correction in shooting the 5-round groups.

100 yard BR is different with a variety of specialist fixed power SFP scopes with high magnifications used, some of them with their adjuster mechanisms locked / glued up so that even the smallest inadvertent change under recoil physically cannot occur. The primary reasons for fixed power are the moving fewer bits inside the scope the more reliable it will be (short-range BR shooters are near paranoid about scope problems or inconsistencies) and just as important weight reduction as the rifles are very heavily restricted and people want as much of the weight allowed to go into the barrel as possible. Every ounce that can be saved on other items is saved.