Following thermal spotters, has the need for top quality binos decreased, or increased in recent years ?

[Blackwood Outdoors]

I always confirm with the scope before pulling the trigger, that is the last line of verification, has been for 25 plus years for me.

Last night I was rat shooting, I shot 100+ around cattle , there is no option for optical daylight binoculars, your facing obstructions like shed doors, legs, hooves , diesel drums, its a case of spot and then identify with the scope safely, my entire life, every person I have ever known, has identified 100% before pulling the trigger with a scope after spotting with lamp, night vision, thermal, every pest controller, every gamekeeper, within a huge radius of my area, leaving a rifle down and just using binoculars is not real life, it covers a very small range of scenarios and totally isolates night shooting situations...

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

No I carry a loaded rifle and if necessary look through the scope at deer when deciding which one to shoot.

I don't feel so unsafe that I can't use the scope to aid selection of what to shoot or subscribe to the notion that I can only point a rifle at something I am going to destroy.

I think Monoromans point is rather good.

The moment you load that rifle, it's pointed somewhere you don't intend to shoot. Assuming it's on your shoulder on a sling- it's either pointing towards the sky, or the ground. Assuming you don't want to destroy either.

Is having a loaded rifle pointed at deer in a safe shootable location while you examine them any more dangerous than having a loaded rifle pointing at the earth or sky ?

 

[Cyres]

Agree entirely. Bins are only 10x. If stalking and I am need to contemplate a shot then can go 15x on Delta or 25x on Zeiss.
Many a time I have watched a deer through my scope without taking a shot. Don't have fingers any where near the trigger.
Sorry to say it but I cannot honestly remember the last time I took my bins quarry shooting. I wouldn't go out without a thermal.
D

 

[Blackwood Outdoors]

Another example I'm out shooting rabbits on stubble, vehicle mounted thermal on roof linked to screen. You cannot 100% verify every heat signature is a rabbit, because of lapwings, partridge, owls, etc, etc . The reason I use good quality thermal or night vision scope mounted, is so that I can verify after spotting that it's my intended quarry.Just using a handheld and never lifting a gun to check 100% would never cut the mustard for me and also when I'm shooting a lot of rabbits, the result would be a massive reduction in numbers culled for no real reason... seems utter tripe.. cannot make sense of it...

 

[Tim.243]

Susat sights came into service in the late 80s suit before that.
It was tought in the British Army to use as an aid to observation for every rifle man and soldier.
All those soldiers on the street corners in NI back in the day must of intended to shoot an awful lot of people……It was is still used to read number plates observe vulnerable points and suspect devices and even to get a positive ID of known suspects at a distance.
A fire arm is an inert stick until you chamber a round.
A rifle with rounds in the magazine and none in the chamber is made safe and harmless unless it has a bayonet fitted or you intend d to use as a club.
It is good practice to keep it pointing in a safe direction and it is even better practice to know the state of your rifle at all times and be confident how to use it safely.
Absolutely nothing wrong with using an unloaded rifle to observe quarry that you are intending to shoot. Using a combination of thermal,binos and your scope safely is winner in my book.

Each to his own I suppose

Quite, I have a Susat sight which I grafted onto my BSA .22 (currently has a drone 10 on) good field of view.
@billy_boyle_2010
No bins for these lads.

 

[Bowland blades]

I have long said that if you carry a thermal you use binoculars a lot, lot less. In addition you’ll lean on thermal a lot more in the key times, ie dusk and dawn. I will never not carry binos though. They work when it’s warm and wet, don’t tun out of battery, for identification of species and suitability for the cull sheet, also in my case as a LRF-as for those of us who like to ring steel a set of LRF binos make more sense. I would say it lessens the necessity for £2500 glasses though, as they’ll be in the harness 80% of the time.

I think even a with a budget thermal an educated stalker who knows their ground will rarely get an ID wrong but it happens. I’ve certainly been distracted by seated stock in heather until it was light enough to ID with glass.

Then there was the Cumbria situ…..

I quite like thermal for some tasks but also feel many slip in to over use. To explain you cannot asses a beast with thermal and once a person places a bead on the animal the brain switches shooting mode , not that one should point a rifle at something unless you are ready to kill it .
Over or heavy use of thermal makes stalking as a sport a far lesser experience. If you stalk for sport be careful to keep the fun in the process . Lots of wizzing about or sat too long for hours waiting for a couched beast inside the tree line to get up yet never actually does in daylight can be very dull

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Simple rule is " dont poke a rifle at something you dont mean to kill or destroy " Been that way for hundreds of years , will still be the same until we get smart bullets that can over ride the stupid humans decisions

That is a simple rule.

Do you stalk with your rifle loaded ? If so- you either plan on destroying the sky if you carry it muzzle up, or the ground if you carry it muzzle down

 

[Heym SR20]

That is a simple rule.

Do you stalk with your rifle loaded ? If so- you either plan on destroying the sky if you carry it muzzle up, or the ground if you carry it muzzle down

I only load a round if a shot is imminent.

When I load a round the rifle is carried muzzle down with muzzle direction under full control of my hand.

Muzzle up - you cannot see the muzzle, you have no idea where it is pointing. And if it goes off you have no idea where the bullet will impact. You are not destroying the sky. The bullet doesn’t keep going upwards.

A centrefire rifle bullet will go anywhere with a 2 or 3 mile radius and will come down with more than enough energy to kill. Yes the chances of it hitting are slim but …

Mrs Heym lived in Honduras in the mid 1990’s. Locals had a habit of firing guns in the air as celebration. She was sitting on her veranda one evening and a pistol bullet came straight through the roof and embedded itself in the floor a few feet from where she was sitting. A few feet to one side …..

Can you live with that on your conscience if it was your rifle that went off into the air?

 

[Bowland blades]

That is a simple rule.

Do you stalk with your rifle loaded ? If so- you either plan on destroying the sky if you carry it muzzle up, or the ground if you carry it muzzle down

I either stalk with the rifle underloaded ( as in hill stalking ) or one round chambered with the safety on ( in woodland type stalking) . The loaded rifle is always muzzle down . What i do not do is climb fences, get into high seats, vehicle's etc with a loaded gun. Its actually very easy to drop the mag empty a chamber etc when you need to.
TBF i can only assume you do not actually partake in deerstalking to ask such a thing or do so in some crazy way that is very ineffective for the task at hand or perhaps walk around like Elmer Fudd muzzle at 9 o'clock with your favourite ACME co cartridges ?

 

[JH83]

I quite like thermal for some tasks but also feel many slip in to over use. To explain you cannot asses a beast with thermal and once a person places a bead on the animal the brain switches shooting mode , not that one should point a rifle at something unless you are ready to kill it .
Over or heavy use of thermal makes stalking as a sport a far lesser experience. If you stalk for sport be careful to keep the fun in the process . Lots of wizzing about or sat too long for hours waiting for a couched beast inside the tree line to get up yet never actually does in daylight can be very dull

Indeedy. I think stalking in woodland it slides the advantage heavily to the stalker. I forget how many times I’ve seen roe couched or behind cover that I might well of bumped. Although on the hill on early morning raids, whilst it gives you the ‘heads up’ it isn’t to my mind as definitive…still a lot to get right to get the result.

I use thermal a lot where there is pressure to reduce numbers-I forget the percentage I heard quoted about how much more efficient it makes you. It was significant, and I thought it rung true. 40-50% I suspect.

That said I’ll ditch the TI when I do some local bits of ground where there is no pressure, back to basics, good to keep glassing skills sharp.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

I only load a round if a shot is imminent.

When I load a round the rifle is carried muzzle down with muzzle direction under full control of my hand.

Muzzle up - you cannot see the muzzle, you have no idea where it is pointing. And if it goes off you have no idea where the bullet will impact. You are not destroying the sky. The bullet doesn’t keep going upwards.

A centrefire rifle bullet will go anywhere with a 2 or 3 mile radius and will come down with more than enough energy to kill. Yes the chances of it hitting are slim but …

Mrs Heym lived in Honduras in the mid 1990’s. Locals had a habit of firing guns in the air as celebration. She was sitting on her veranda one evening and a pistol bullet came straight through the roof and embedded itself in the floor a few feet from where she was sitting. A few feet to one side …..

Can you live with that on your conscience if it was your rifle that went off into the air?

Yup agreed- easy for a poor fitting sling to angle your rifle at 50-60 degrees- at which point that bullet can go for miles. Not that an accidental discharge if it was pointing at 90 degrees is acceptable.....

Funnily enough I remember reading an Andy McNab novel as a teenager and he referred to AK47 bullets being shot into the sky with the inevitable risk to the public when gravity gets the better of them. He was concerned at recieving the blame from memory, given he was captive at the time amongst a group of excited locals.

A bit of tape on the moderator keeps it clear from debris I find

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

I either stalk with the rifle underloaded ( as in hill stalking ) or one round chambered with the safety on ( in woodland type stalking) . The loaded rifle is always muzzle down . What i do not do is climb fences, get into high seats, vehicle's etc with a loaded gun. Its actually very easy to drop the mag empty a chamber etc when you need to.
TBF i can only assume you do not actually partake in deerstalking to ask such a thing or do so in some crazy way that is very ineffective for the task at hand or perhaps walk around like Elmer Fudd muzzle at 9 o'clock with your favourite ACME co cartridges ?

The point I was making (which I thought was pretty obvious but perhaps not) is you very strictly said you "should never poke a gun at something you dont intend to destroy".

Given you point a loaded rifle at the ground when woodland stalking- and I assume you dont intend to destroy the ground by your feet- your simple rule isn't quite so simple

I'm being a bit tongue in cheek really. If one does carry a loaded rifle- muzzle down certainly seems the safest option. (it also keeps a lower profile/silhouette). I can also appreciate that pointing a loaded rifle at the ground is less unsafe than pointing it at a herd of deer which are all in safe shooting positions while you confirm a target.

I'm not really pushing back that hard- I agree with your best practice approach and stalk in a similar way- muzzle down and tape on the mod

 

[Bowland blades]

The point I was making (which I thought was pretty obvious but perhaps not) is you very strictly said you "should never poke a gun at something you dont intend to destroy".

Given you point a loaded rifle at the ground when woodland stalking- and I assume you dont intend to destroy the ground by your feet- your simple rule isn't quite so simple

I'm being a bit tongue in cheek really. If one does carry a loaded rifle- muzzle down certainly seems the safest option. (it also keeps a lower profile/silhouette). I can also appreciate that pointing a loaded rifle at the ground is less unsafe than pointing it at a herd of deer which are all in safe shooting positions while you confirm a target.

I'm not really pushing back that hard- I agree with your best practice approach and stalk in a similar way- muzzle down and tape on the mod

A hole in the ground i can live with indeed i made one about 40 years ago as a safety catch unknown to me at the time was faulty . the trigger caught something and "boom" BIG LESSON ! I would tape an unmoderated rifle on a wet day or a crawl but not a moderated end in reality i cant hardly remember shooting unmoderated with a cf rifle from when the first where offered that's quite a time ago now when Jacksons brought in the T8

 

[VSS]

A hole in the ground i can live with indeed i made one about 40 years ago as a safety catch unknown to me at the time was faulty . the trigger caught something and "boom" BIG LESSON ! I would tape an unmoderated rifle on a wet day or a crawl but not a moderated end in reality i cant hardly remember shooting unmoderated with a cf rifle from when the first where offered that's quite a time ago now when Jacksons brought in the T8

Just out of interest, why would you tape an unmoderated, but not an moderated, muzzle?
(I tape both, btw).

 

[sh1kar]

Just out of interest, why would you tape a moderated, but not an unmoderated, muzzle?
(I tape both, btw).

other way round
s

 

[VSS]

other way round
s

Thanks. I just corrected my post

 

[nun_hunter]

I think Monoromans point is rather good.

The moment you load that rifle, it's pointed somewhere you don't intend to shoot. Assuming it's on your shoulder on a sling- it's either pointing towards the sky, or the ground. Assuming you don't want to destroy either.

Is having a loaded rifle pointed at deer in a safe shootable location while you examine them any more dangerous than having a loaded rifle pointing at the earth or sky ?

Exactly. I was pointing out the flaw in people's logic when they say never to point a rifle at anything unless you've already confirmed you want to destroy it. As soon as you load the rifle it's "dangerous" and you're already pointing it at things you have no intention of shooting.

I have no issue with seeing a deer in the thermal and then looking through the scope to confirm if I want to shoot it or not. I can only imagine that those who find this so dangerous or reckless that they'd never do it must be terrified of their rifle shooting all by itself or have zero confidence in where they are and what they're looking at before looking through binoculars.

 

[Bowland blades]

Just out of interest, why would you tape an unmoderated, but not an moderated, muzzle?
(I tape both, btw).

because to truly plug a moderator is a very ,very unlikely thing the plug would not truly plug but dirt might get into the baffles hanging on to say a 2mm edge?
A true plugged barrel is a pressure issue and that is far more important to deal with . its actually pretty hard to plug an unmoderated rifle well enough for the barrel to blow up but certainly can be done , our military snipers are taught how to do this to their rifles in the case of likely capture pushing the muzzle deep into the ground and pulling the trigger with cordage from a safe place . Remember the air inside the barrel would compress and blow the plug out clear in most instances above ground as the pressure built ( hence burial on the whole barrel with a good stuffing of mud etc ) . I have seen blown moderators generally its lack of maintenance but there was a batch of knock of copy T8 copies that blew on folks going back to times when mods where hard to get your hands on early days.

 

[VSS]

because to truly plug a moderator is a very ,very unlikely thing the plug would not truly plug but dirt might get into the baffles hanging on to say a 2mm edge?
A true plugged barrel is a pressure issue and that is far more important to deal with . its actually pretty hard to plug an unmoderated rifle well enough for the barrel to blow up but certainly can be done , our military snipers are taught how to do this to their rifles in the case of likely capture pushing the muzzle deep into the ground and pulling the trigger with cordage from a safe place . Remember the air inside the barrel would compress and blow the plug out clear in most instances above ground as the pressure built ( hence burial on the whole barrel with a good stuffing of mud etc ) . I have seen blown moderators generally its lack of maintenance but there was a batch of knock of copy T8 copies that blew on folks going back to times when mods where hard to get your hands on early days.

Ah, I see. I was thinking of it more in terms of keeping rainwater out, rather than mud. I have seen an untaped moderator almost full of water at the end of a day in foul weather.

 

[ferretmanabu]

I carry a pair of Zeiss 8x30 which come out of the pocket when thermal has picked something up. They’re small enough to fit into the thigh pocket of the trousers. Thermal stays around my neck.