fox shooting calibres

[Tikkat1x]

Hi all,
i once read that different forces have different ideas as to what calibres you can and cant shoot foxes with, iv also read that only deer have a legal minimum calibre they can be shot with,
a few week ago i contacted my local FEO to ask what there thoughts on shooting foxes with a 17 HMR as id heard it changed from force to force, and although i didnt say anything i thought to my self that it should be the same for all not down to different forces, i also asked how id go about putting in for a 223 if the 17 hmr was not in there eyes suitable, she pretty much ripped me a new one, saying im not permitted to shoot foxes as id only put down vermin, pigeon,crows and rabbits down on my application, then ripped into me telling me the 17 hmr is not a foxing round, and id have to gain shooting experience first, and also go out with someone who had a 223 and gain experience that way too, all of which is fair enough, yet i can shoot fox with my shotgun with no restrictions, all seems a bit F*****g mental to me.
many thanks.

lee

 

[Greenmist]

Ripping you a new one isn't in their job discription, sounds like a letter regarding their conduct as a guest in your house is required

 

[Tikkat1x]

this was an email mate, and i did think the same, especially when i was just after some guidance and advise to stay within the law, most people i know with a hmr shoot foxes,

 

[Greenmist]

Send a polite email back asking for relevant parts of the guidance that they work off so you can make an informed decision

 

[Husky]

So foxes are not vermin according to your FEO ?

 

[Lancaster]

Hi all,
i once read that different forces have different ideas as to what calibres you can and cant shoot foxes with, iv also read that only deer have a legal minimum calibre they can be shot with,
a few week ago i contacted my local FEO to ask what there thoughts on shooting foxes with a 17 HMR as id heard it changed from force to force, and although i didnt say anything i thought to my self that it should be the same for all not down to different forces, i also asked how id go about putting in for a 223 if the 17 hmr was not in there eyes suitable, she pretty much ripped me a new one, saying im not permitted to shoot foxes as id only put down vermin, pigeon,crows and rabbits down on my application, then ripped into me telling me the 17 hmr is not a foxing round, and id have to gain shooting experience first, and also go out with someone who had a 223 and gain experience that way too, all of which is fair enough, yet i can shoot fox with my shotgun with no restrictions, all seems a bit F*****g mental to me.
many thanks.

lee

See page 112 in the link, HMR is OK subject to conditions, but it is not a dedicated fox calibre, if you have good reason for a .223, and suitable ground to use it on, put in a variation.

I have shot at few at close range (50-60yds) that have popped out when bunny shooting. but it wouldn't be my rifle of choice

Clicky

 

[The Singing Stalker]

There are a number of things but without seeing or hearing her response it is hard to know how big the new one is . Some people are more sensitive than others.
There is plenty of debate on here regarding using the HMR on foxes. I side with the camp that says, there are more suitable calibres. Yes it will take them, but you really need to know what you are doing and where to put it (the projectile) to ensure you don’t get a runner. My opinion only, and not wanting to start another HMR thread.
Do you have an fac currently? I am trying to understand why she wants you to go out and get experience with a 223? Rifle handling safety is pretty much the same whatever the calibre, the main difference being a bigger projectile will go farther and through bigger things, but if you are working with the basics then, you will have considered the backstop etc etc.
If you are lacking in experience then it is a good thing to go out with someone and learn. I have taken a few people out now and you (usually) can tell pretty quickly if someone is safety conscious or not.
Also as said I would have thought Fox would be covered by Vermin.
i got around by asking for AOLQ on the cert. I thought that was what the forces were moving to.

 

[Tikkat1x]

Iv only had my FAC a couple of months. And my question to them was one of enquiry really. I totally understand the hmr round is not ideal. And I can see there point about getting experience with someone before putting in for a larger calibre. I’m not a sensitive person at all and to be fair the size of the tear ( see what I did there) is not the great. She just sounded like a bit of a?? best not say. I still find it odd it differs force to force. And from what iv just been reading, foxes are not classed as vermin.

 

[Reloader708]

I've received a telling before after making an inquiry (more then once actullay) and I does leave you feeling a bit down I the mouth especially when you've been caught off guard on an otherwise lovely day.
I once wanted to swap a .22 (old Parker hale) mod and asked what to do with it. The guy on the phone said just destroy it then put in for a one for one. Oh how I wish I'd taken his name or had a record of that advice because when the paper work went in I received a call from a very cross lady who "tore me a new one" too.

 

[pimmy]

tell her to stand 100 yrds away and rattle on in her arse and asked did it hurt a 17 hmr drops foxes all day 50 to 100 no bother
shoot a turnip or a sugar beet at 100 yrd and see the impact

 

[Tim.243]

Iv only had my FAC a couple of months. And my question to them was one of enquiry really. I totally understand the hmr round is not ideal. And I can see there point about getting experience with someone before putting in for a larger calibre. I’m not a sensitive person at all and to be fair the size of the tear ( see what I did there) is not the great. She just sounded like a bit of a?? best not say. I still find it odd it differs force to force. And from what iv just been reading, foxes are not classed as vermin.

Her description was incorrect, however in all shooting the more you shoot the % of loosing stuff through a misplaced shot for what ever reason goes up. The 17 as you say is not ideal with distance also wind and cover, so with it being not ideal, the smaller C/F sizes .222 22-250 .223 will work v well for what you need.
Forget the vermin quote just tick the boxes and crack on....
I use a .243 with a 95gn round as it doubles up as a good deer round also many times foxing in a gale of wind it finds the spot which is what you want. They only run if you chip them front leg/down the side etc. HL Chest lights out.

 

[Heym SR20]

Best advice is to not ask an FEO for their opinion in the first place.

You have an FAC, which will probably have conditions attached. Make sure you stay within those conditions. And also read the home office guidance notes. And then take your own view on those. And ask the question over whether you can or cannot justify your actions in the event of a prosecution.

A 17 HMR runs out of speed, velocity and energy at 200 perhaps 300m. A 223 / 5.56 is still deadly out to well over 600, so there is a big big step up in power and deadliness.

I can totally understand why an FEO says get some experience first. When applying for any variation you need to demonstrate:

1) Clear need for that particular weapon
2) That you are a fit and competent person and fully understand all the safety implications involved.

When putting in for a variation clearly demonstrate both of the above. It is better to oversupply information than under supply.

You also really do need a good understanding of a humane killing distance. With a 22rf and a subsonic bullet - on a fox I wouldn’t shoot much beyond 30 odd yards, but with a high velocity bullet i would shoot at 60 odd provided it was a clear and steady shot. I wouldn’t by choice use a 22rf on a fox, especially a large one, but would do so if I had a 22rf in my hand at the time. With a 17 HMR you can certainly kill a fox with a bullet in the vitals, but it is susceptible to wind, and that bullet is small and will it punch through shoulder etc.

 

[Heym SR20]

Following my above post have a read of the New Guidance Notes. There is a whole section on Fox calibres.

See New Home Office Guidance of Firearms Use 2021 - rimfires and Fox, Law on shooting Birds and Animals.

 

[Bowland blades]

Hi all,
i once read that different forces have different ideas as to what calibres you can and cant shoot foxes with, iv also read that only deer have a legal minimum calibre they can be shot with,
a few week ago i contacted my local FEO to ask what there thoughts on shooting foxes with a 17 HMR as id heard it changed from force to force, and although i didnt say anything i thought to my self that it should be the same for all not down to different forces, i also asked how id go about putting in for a 223 if the 17 hmr was not in there eyes suitable, she pretty much ripped me a new one, saying im not permitted to shoot foxes as id only put down vermin, pigeon,crows and rabbits down on my application, then ripped into me telling me the 17 hmr is not a foxing round, and id have to gain shooting experience first, and also go out with someone who had a 223 and gain experience that way too, all of which is fair enough, yet i can shoot fox with my shotgun with no restrictions, all seems a bit F*****g mental to me.
many thanks.

lee

HMR is definitely not a decent fox load!. However "vermin " it certainly does come under . Fact of the matter is people have shot foxes with 12 ftlb but its not advisory at all and a cruelty change could be made for any such acts . If it had to be RF then 22mag at short ranges at 40 yards a heavy load shotgun is unbeatable at the low end of a CF ( the latter should be the minimum in my personal view ) That said
Your FAC terms depend on what your certificate actually states
Vermin is really anything that is not game . from a mouse up technically ! Don't think its wise to fall out with your FEO , tread gently

 

[Bowland blades]

Best advice is to not ask an FEO for their opinion in the first place.

You have an FAC, which will probably have conditions attached. Make sure you stay within those conditions. And also read the home office guidance notes. And then take your own view on those. And ask the question over whether you can or cannot justify your actions in the event of a prosecution.

A 17 HMR runs out of speed, velocity and energy at 200 perhaps 300m. A 223 / 5.56 is still deadly out to well over 600, so there is a big big step up in power and deadliness.

I can totally understand why an FEO says get some experience first. When applying for any variation you need to demonstrate:

1) Clear need for that particular weapon
2) That you are a fit and competent person and fully understand all the safety implications involved.

When putting in for a variation clearly demonstrate both of the above. It is better to oversupply information than under supply.

You also really do need a good understanding of a humane killing distance. With a 22rf and a subsonic bullet - on a fox I wouldn’t shoot much beyond 30 odd yards, but with a high velocity bullet i would shoot at 60 odd provided it was a clear and steady shot. I wouldn’t by choice use a 22rf on a fox, especially a large one, but would do so if I had a 22rf in my hand at the time. With a 17 HMR you can certainly kill a fox with a bullet in the vitals, but it is susceptible to wind, and that bullet is small and will it punch through shoulder etc.

The HMR is in my experience totally unsuited in most circumstances of fox BUT IT IS VERMIN and if it does not state what you can shoot with what you have ........ or it says what you cannot shoot with what ??? I think the team in firearms in your county need to start stating if it bothers them eh?

 

[Liveonce]

four year gap between your post and the last post

 

[8x57]

four year gap between your post and the last post

Yes, so Tikkat1X should have gained the necessary experience by now.

 

[hairlesshunter]

Hi Tikkat1x I believe you fall under the same police force as me .
My feo told me if I was out with my hmr 17 their would be no reason why I couldn’t take a fox with it as long as it was in a suitable range .
But it would be looked down on if it was solely my intention to go out to take a fox with the hmr .
On mentoring I was told when I put in my application that I would have to be mentored I have also mentored others .
But once when I questioned the lady who was in charge of West Yorkshire on a application for a 308 about mentoring and the land didn’t have enough deer on it and that they were pushing me down the path to taking on payed stalking .she told me Bluntly that West Yorkshire did not and would not insist on been mentored and have never done this and all that she asked for was to get some guidance ( paid stalking) in my mine
The phone call end with her tell me to go away and think about it
Around three weeks later they granted me the 308
I did have to book for a payed stalking
And the land that they said didn’t have enough deer on it the feo told me that their would be no problem with getting it past for 308 and because it had already been past for up to 308 the month before I received my license back I rang up to do a land check on said land (when you could) and was told it was cleared up 308 .I then asked if I got written permission would I be allowed to shoot over said land and the answer was yes .
Ps I did have an open ticket
I think hole issue was all about being granted a 308 and they just tried to put stumbling blocks in front

Good luck it’s not always straightforward but usually there is way even if it not the way you have intended

 

[Tikkat1x]

Yes, so Tikkat1X should have gained the necessary experience by now.

defiantly. my 223 now takes care of the foxes, and the 243 for roe,

 

[Tikkat1x]

Hi Tikkat1x I believe you fall under the same police force as me .
My feo told me if I was out with my hmr 17 their would be no reason why I couldn’t take a fox with it as long as it was in a suitable range .
But it would be looked down on if it was solely my intention to go out to take a fox with the hmr .
On mentoring I was told when I put in my application that I would have to be mentored I have also mentored others .
But once when I questioned the lady who was in charge of West Yorkshire on a application for a 308 about mentoring and the land didn’t have enough deer on it and that they were pushing me down the path to taking on payed stalking .she told me Bluntly that West Yorkshire did not and would not insist on been mentored and have never done this and all that she asked for was to get some guidance ( paid stalking) in my mine
The phone call end with her tell me to go away and think about it
Around three weeks later they granted me the 308
I did have to book for a payed stalking
And the land that they said didn’t have enough deer on it the feo told me that their would be no problem with getting it past for 308 and because it had already been past for up to 308 the month before I received my license back I rang up to do a land check on said land (when you could) and was told it was cleared up 308 .I then asked if I got written permission would I be allowed to shoot over said land and the answer was yes .
Ps I did have an open ticket
I think hole issue was all about being granted a 308 and they just tried to put stumbling blocks in front

Good luck it’s not always straightforward but usually there is way even if it not the way you have intended

there jokers, typical police, just tell you what they want you to believe, most dont have a clue, and all give different answers, its comical some of the things iv heard,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
i find its generally the women in the office that have no clue, i never knew land had to have X amount of deer on it to be granted a rifle/calibre. my FLO never asked me how many were about,
the bloke at WYP now is ex firearms police so has a clue on what hes talking about, a nice chap too