fox while deer stalking

[JAYB]

Paul,

I agree with your observations, but the opening line of condition 1 "The firearms and ammunition may be used for sporting and pest control" also provide a lot of wriggle room. I like to think that the wording of the certificate is ambiguous enough in the grey areas tp satisfy everyone. Plus the Police up here in the Highlands, Northern Constabulary, are very practicle, and I am willing to bet that did I feel the need to specify Boar etc, they would agree to it no bother at all.

I just feel very lucky, or should that be priviliged, to have none of the limiting conditions applied to my rifles as to what can be shot with what. I am content in the knowledge that whatever one of my stalking rifles I am out with I can also take vermin. A much more sensible approach to FAC granting, easier to Police and easier on the administration side, which must mean more cost effective, surely.

John

 

[tolley]

certificate

so when you fill out the certificate for foxes ,deer ,boar,target shooting.what do you need to put down,to get them all cleared?

 

[sikamalc]

If you have an open licence, apart from having to fill in a land form which prooves you have permission to hunt or stalk an area, you can book a hunt anywhere, I always advise people to put "where I am by invatation or payment".

If you cannot book something in this country or have ground to hunt over, you may want to consider hunting abroad for Wild Boar in the next year or two, and will therefore need it put on your licence, and will require a suitable calibre.

I know that some constabularies will only allow certain calibres for Fox, but it is ridiculous to say that you cannot shoot a Fox whilst out stalking just because you do not have the permitted rifle with you at the time. If you have had a licence 5 years there should be no reason why you cannot have an open licence and take all species with all the legal calibres you hold.

Remember to put a sound case forward in a constructive manner with your county police force, and if you are not satisfied write a letter to the area FA Officer.

 

[wadashot]

fox while deerstalking

Just had a read at my license and it reads,

The .243, .270 and full bore sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for the shooting of fox and deer and for zeroing on ranges or over land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

The certificate holder may possess, purchase or aquire expanding ammunition, or missiles of such ammunition, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with,(a) the lawful shooting of deer,(b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with mangement of any estate, other wildlife,(c) the humane killing of animals,(d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.

I`ve had these restrictions, if you can call them restrictions on my license for years and seems pretty straight forward to me that if for example i was out stalking and was to come upon a wild boar, then i would be well within the law to shoot it. To me the word , OTHER ANIMALS, gives me the authority, maybe someone will tell me otherwise. Wadashot.

 

[sikamalc]

Wadashot, you have an open licence, which allows you to take deer and fox with both calibres. However although it states for the protection of humans and other animals, this does not allow you to take Wild Boar, or other large game that runs around the UK.

I had this argument with my FA unit, and had Wild Boar added sometime ago, even though the licence reads that you may protect human and animals and appears to say that it covers everything, unfortunatly it does not.

Thats how I read it and what I have been told by Kent Police.

 

[paul k]

The general interpretation by most police firearms departments is that because of the terms of the current Home Office guidelines you need to have wild boar specifically mentioned as a quarry species and the "vermin", "other animals" and other loopholes will not be accepted.

When I complained to my local FAO about the stupidity of not being able to shoot a fox whilst deer stalking with my .270 which is currently for deer and zeroing only, he said "off the record" that if I was ever reported (unlikely) and witnesses obtained (more unlikely) it was almost impossible that a case would be persued as I would not have broken the law, just a Chief Constable's condition. He didn't answer my next question about what problems this might cause when it next came time for renewing my FAC!!

 

[Duncs]

here is one...243 and 308. deer, vermin..." or,in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife. IAnd all i asked for was deer and fox. I guess goat, pigs are classsed as any other wildlife???

 

[Duncs]

Having looked more closley...that might just be the ammo!!

 

[325wsm]

I am afraid you are missreading your conditions............

The conditions regarding Expanding Ammo are ONLY conditions attributed to the calibre/cratridge conditions and NOT conditions in their own right.

 

[poddle]

open licence

Hi Guys,
I'm new so be gentle with me.
I am intrigued by the wording of "Lawful Authority"
It says the same on my FAC, I mean what exactly is "Lawful Authority"?
and by whom is it given. What I am trying to say is that should the land be checked first by the enquiery officer, who then gives lawful authority, or is it simply permission from the land owner.

We could run into trouble over this by assuming our FAC to be open when in fact it's not.

I would also like to add that it is such a shame that folk like us have to spend hours playing amatuer lawyers just to persue our pastimes or jobs.

It's about time that the system was made equal for all and that individual forces stopped making up the rules as they go along. My FAC has been away for over a month just for variation(it took them two months for my change of address earlier this year)
In my nieghbouring county you can get a variation whilst you wait if you turn up at the office.At least that is what I was told yesterday by a RFD

 

[Beowulf]

Hi Poddle,
You are right, I've finally got an open licence just to find out that it is partitioned. Its open for shooting deer and fox with 243 but my 308 is too big apparently for use on my ground. I've been shooting Military and civilian weapons for twenty-five years, I should hope that by now I know what I'm doing!
I try not to talk to the firearms people too often, it gives me a headache.

 

[325wsm]

In most instances your FAC is YOUR lawful authoriity.

 

[poddle]

lawful authourity

Yes, I agree it is down to lawful authourity, but who gives it. This is the bit that seems unclear in the statement at the bottom of my FAC. My EO told me that I could use my rifle on land that had been passed to its calibre or above, anything else I then had to ask.
Apart from that it reads as being open, others seem to be having the same trouble.

 

[poddle]

lawful authourity

Ok just checked with BASC, and Lawful Authority means that you have permission from the landowner to shoot legal species, the police have no part in this, as they cannot give lawful authority over the land as they do not own it.

However,The Landowner must have the right to give that permission, ie he is not a tenant with the shooting rights already sold.

Basically the condition is unfair,and being as the wording differs on so many FAC's the FA offices are making it up off the top of their heads.
BASC are not impressed

hope this helps

 

[wadashot]

Hi. poddle.

You haven`t got any restrictions on your license, as it says, where you have Lawful Authority, on it. How much more open does it need to be. So long as the "landowner" has given You, in other words,"PERMISSION", then you have got the rights to shoot on that ground. No firearms officer has to land check the ground, as this is left up to you to decide whether it is suitable for your calibre of rifle.

wadashot.

 

[poddle]

land checks

yes your dead right, land checks are just guidelines from the home office and should be done with the consultancy of local shooters. Have you EVER HEARD OF THAT BEING DONE?

You cannot be prosecuted for shooting on unchecked land, as its a guideline and not a law. Had this out with the BASC legal team yesterday

However, EO's dictate to you that you must get it all passed(mine certainly did anyway)
Nothing short of bullying I'd say, upset them tho, and you may end up with restriction being applied upon renewal.Just to teach you a lesson.

 

[wadashot]

Hello poddle,

I have never heard of having to have the land checked out even if you have an open license. I am on good terms with my local firearms licensing dept and at no point have they ever mentioned to me about getting any new ground that i aquire land checked. In the past where i have taken clients stalking i have had to have my land checked by the local firearms officer for that person to be able to shoot, if they didn`t` have an open ticket. This seems to defeat the whole object about having an open license, and certainly looks like your firearms dept is overstepping the mark, in my eyes at least. Quite a few years back now i was told that the home office had told all of the firearms depts in the country that they had to all stick to the home office guidelines, rather than making up there own laws to suit. wadashot.

 

[poddle]

land checks

yes you completly right, whats the point of giving out an open license then telling you verbaly that you have to undergo land checks.
The Basc web page on the subject reads as such

. Land checks.

This is a subject which probably causes more ill-feeling and frustration for both applicant and police than any other aspect of the licensing process.

It is BASC’s firmly held opinion, supported by the findings of the Firearms Consultative Committee, that checks to see if a particular area of land is suitable for the use of a rifle of a particular calibre are a waste of time. It is the user of the rifle who is “safe” or “unsafe”; not the rifle itself; and certainly not the land.

However we seem to be stuck, for the moment, with the unsatisfactory system of assessing land for suitability. An Enquiry Officer, presented with the duty of signing a report to say that a certain piece of land is “safe”, tends to err on the side of caution. This, while understandable, is no help whatever to the applicant needing to control rabbits, foxes or deer on that land and is seen as ridiculous when one considers that another rifleman, with an “open” certificate, may quite properly shoot there.

We feel that it would save a great deal of stressful confrontation if reports on land were worded along the following lines:

“The land at....... extends to some .... acres and is bounded on the west by a busy A class road and on the north by the lane from .... to .... There are two public footpaths crossing the land and a bridleway runs across the north-east corner; none are very much used. The village of ..... lies just over a mile to the south-west etc etc. The land is of a rolling nature, with many areas where a line of fire would present a safe backstop. A sensible person could use a rifle quite safely on that land provided that care was taken to ensure that safe backstops were identified and that anyone using the neighbouring roads and rights of way was not endangered or alarmed.”

It is also a cause of widespread discontent that Home Office Guidance on land checks is never followed. Section 13.13 of that Guidance advises that, “When land inspections are required, the knowledge and experience of local shooters, stalkers, gamekeepers etc. should be drawn upon.” In the 10 years (Feb 1999) that George Wallace has been Firearms Officer for BASC he is aware of very few instances in which this advice has been followed. It leaves a very bad impression both on BASC and, more importantly, on your customers if land is seen to be refused unreasonably.

Obviously Avon and Somerset Office choose to ignore the guidelines and interpret them as law and use them as conditions

Strange how they never fully commit themselves "LEGALLY" AND PUT THIS IN WRITING on the fac, only ever verbally, I wonder if they are scared that this sharp practice may be found out and proved

 

[325wsm]

To a certain extent we are all our own worst enemies.

We should check and double check the law and then stand up for our rights -adamantly.

Remember most of the FEOs are only civilians (the same as you and I) and often with a lot less 'knowledge' than we ourselves have.

Over the years I have taken a very strong and positive approach and on the odd occasions I have not achieve total satisfaction, I have always reached an amicable and acceptable compromise.

It would behoove us all to do the same.

 

[poddle]

standing up

Yes we should stand up more,but I suppose that we have it drilled into us that it's a privilidge not a right to own a firearm, and thus we then tread cap in hand to the very people that are doing all the lying for fear of being unwittingly deceptive.

Do we wish to be singled out as trouble makers?
Or should the likes of Basc and the CA be doing more to correct this malpractice. After all we pay them to represent us and our sport. It's illegal and surely just the threat of action would halt it once and for all.