Frosted grooves?

[ColinJ]

I recently asked Holts for a condition report on the bore of a rifle in their next auction. The reply reads as follows:

"The bore is lightly marked and with some frosting to the grooves, but generally ok"

Could anyone translate that into English for me please? I don't understand what "frosting to the grooves" means!

 

[takbok]

Probably a euphemism for rust and pitting.

 

[finnbear270]

Sounds like auction speak for crazing

 

[bryn]

Morning Colin.
When you put a camera down the bore of a rifle, especially a cleaned bore the corrosion/pitting looks like white frosting or snowflakes. That’s my guess at what they mean although I’ve not heard that term used before.
Bryn

 

[webley701]

It’s a common auction description relating to wear (generally erosion in the first few inches from the chamber). Cordite induced erosion in particular produced what to the naked eye appeared to be a ‘frosted’ appearance - the term has stuck.

 

[finnbear270]

#3

 

[ColinJ]

It’s a common auction description relating to wear (generally erosion in the first few inches from the chamber). Cordite induced erosion in particular produced what to the naked eye appeared to be a ‘frosted’ appearance - the term has stuck.

Thank you, that makes sense.

 

[ColinJ]

Sounds like auction speak for crazing

What is ‘crazing’ in a bore?

 

[finnbear270]

What is ‘crazing’ in a bore?

Smash up a flagstone patio with a sledgehammer, then take a good look.

 

[ColinJ]

Smash up a flagstone patio with a sledgehammer, then take a good look.

Mate I know what crazy paving is. I’m here to learn so I’d be interested to know how the inside of a rifle bore could look like that.

 

[HonestJohn]

Slight frosting, sounds better than pitted and corroded, so that’s why they use it. Holts are notorious for playing with the descriptions and pictures

 

[Rory]

Mate I know what crazy paving is. I’m here to learn so I’d be interested to know how the inside of a rifle bore could look like that.

This is 'firecracking', usually associated with the leade and first portion of the barrel. Not sure if this constitutes 'frosting' as my initial thoughts are that frosting is corrosion.

This next picture shows at the leade, where you'd expect to see firecracking.

 

[Heym SR20]

i bought my combination gun from Holts 15 odd years ago. Bore described as slightly frosted in condition report. It shoots absolutely fine and 15 years later still shoots absolutely fine. It’s not target rifle accurate, but even when new doubt it ever was.

If its the main auction I would put a commissions bid to the max amount you are prepared to pay. But depending on the rifle once you get it in your hot little hands, give it a good clean and then shoot it. It will probably be fine. What kills accuracy is the last inch at the muzzle and in particular the crown.

And like any 2nd hand bolt action rifle factor in a recrown or even a rebarrel when putting down the cash.

 

[Mr. Gain]

Slight frosting, sounds better than pitted and corroded, so that’s why they use it. Holts are notorious for playing with the descriptions and pictures

IME, if condition is bad, it will be described by Holt's as such. "Frosting" tells you that the bore is not pristine, but also that none of the individual imperfections can be singled out, as they could be in a "pitted" bore.
A rifle with "frosting" in its grooves will, as Heym SR20 says, most probably shoot as well as one with a gleaming bore. If there's a meaningful difference, it may simply be that a rifle with "frosted" grooves takes a little more cleaning.

 

[Heym SR20]

I would add that on the sealed bid auction, again factor in some work required on any gun to get it working well.

If you want to really understand the condition get yourself down to Norfolk and have a good look through the Auction exhibits. There are some good pubs nearby if you need a bed for the night. A pottering with fine guns is not a wasted day.

 

[finnbear270]

Take a look at the pic “Detailed fire cracking”, says crazy paving to me, frosting is what you get on a cold morning.

 

[Sinistral]

I don't understand why Holts would do this, or why anyone would depend on their assessment if they did. They don't offer any guarantees because they don't have to. Prospective buyers sign up to the usual auction disclaimers below as a condition of bidding. I just don't get this at all, unless you have some privileged status? . .

Conditions Concerning Buyers . . .

13. The buyer shall not rely purely upon the catalogue description but shall satisfy himself as to the physical condition and the description of each Lot.
Please note that the descriptions of firearms in the catalogues are restricted to external examinations and the status of proof.
Firearms are not stripped as a matter of course and it is recommended that any purchase is stripped and cleaned and that the firing, safety and sighting mechanisms are checked by a qualified gunsmith before use.

 

[HonestJohn]

I’ve bought some rifles from them that were downright dangerous, slam fires, safety not working, bolts with broken off recoil lugs, they even sold me an 8x57 that turned out to be a 7x57

 

[finnbear270]

You pays your money and ………. Having said that I had a tack driver .25-06 from Holts, just had to jet wash it all after I stripped it.

 

[enfieldspares]

Frosting as I understand it means that the lands and grooves are not shiny shiny like the top side of kitchen foil but matted like the bottom side. How that frosting occurs in a rifle can be (amongst other ways) by cleaning with aggressive tools. That might be a wire gauze pull through or a steel wire bristle brush. Either being used as the bore has at some time suffered from a light rusting. Not enough to cause pitting but enough to have now matted the surface. Or aggressive chemicals such as filling a corked stopped barrel with ammonia in an attempt to de-copper a bore that has then been left in too long. The old "bath brick" or powdered pumice could also "frost" a bore. So the causes could be many and indeed the age of the weapon might give a clue to what was likely to have been the culprit. On old .303 service rifles I'd suspect wire gauze cleaning out a bore that had gotten slightly rusted from mercuric primers. On an old sporting or target rifle perhaps "bath brick" or later on the use of ammonia.