Back to the future where quality not quantity was the key where allowed and desired without negative grazing pressure with a more even balance in theory and devil in the detail I suspect.
Never mind the quality feel the width
.Glen feshie
- Thread starter stoker150
- Start date
Never mind the quality feel the width
.
Yes it was wonderful when Lord D had it Charles as were his other estates. I stalked Batsford for him in the 80's, when he gave up Roe stalking. Had a visit to Fassfearn but only once.
Its only a matter of timeA report submitted to the crown estate commissioners in 1965 by Richard waddington tenant of sporting rights and lodges on the crown estates, glenlivet, lecht, and strathavon 1947-1972 had quite a bit to say on tree planting and the “paton plan” of doing so as opposed to large areas been planted thus totally losing some habitat which was the trend of the times and gives a bit of historical interest into habitat change then. Apologies, nothing to do with the magnificent glen fleshie and the changes brought about by greatly reducing grazing pressure allowing regeneration and change of flora and fauna at the cost of other species which once were the focus of ownership.
Look on bright side no wind farms yet
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
We’re going to end up with a mid European model, continuous forest cover and far fewer deer per Ha to allow natural regeneration of the trees.Back to the future where quality not quantity was the key where allowed and desired without negative grazing pressure with a more even balance in theory and devil in the detail I suspect.
Never mind the quality feel the width
It might just work.
With Less deer and more woodland cover the stags heads will improve over time. It will just be a change and people hate change
Sealgair nam fiadh
Well-Known Member
The trees died out due to the climate becoming wetter and colder starting about five thousand years ago, Scotland is still wet and cold ( apart from our one day of summer per year ) , so how are all these trees going to magically appear and thrive ?
Hmm…
That’s very debatable indeed.
The very glen at the heart of this discussion indicates that trees can and do grow back when herbivory is reduced. I’ve seen native woodland grow back as high up as 600m when herbivory was controlled. And there’s good historical documentary evidence of forest in many places where there is now moorland.
While the mythical Great Caldonian Forest completely covering the whole Highlands is most likely a fantasy, to say there’s a climatic constraint on forest re growth is also untrue.
It will be interesting to see what climate change will bring.
Will we be looking at the Scots pine dying out to be replaced by the Corsican?
Will we suffer wild fires such as in Canada.
You can probably say goodbye to the ptarmigan, mountain hare and possibly the red grouse. The latter two because of reduced habitat from what I can understand, as they prefer open mountains as opposed to woodland.
In fact I wonder what the count is for these two at Glenfeshie.
Although deer will probably flourish in woodland, I doubt the mountain hare will.
Will we be looking at the Scots pine dying out to be replaced by the Corsican?
Will we suffer wild fires such as in Canada.
You can probably say goodbye to the ptarmigan, mountain hare and possibly the red grouse. The latter two because of reduced habitat from what I can understand, as they prefer open mountains as opposed to woodland.
In fact I wonder what the count is for these two at Glenfeshie.
Although deer will probably flourish in woodland, I doubt the mountain hare will.
Sealgair nam fiadh
Well-Known Member
Ok, I will be be more accurate, the Scots Pine died out due to climate change and there never was a great forest of Caledonia.
I agree that Glen Feshie and other places that have reduced herbivore grazing have resulted in alders and birches regenerating but we will never see a Great Forest of Caledonia.
I agree that Glen Feshie and other places that have reduced herbivore grazing have resulted in alders and birches regenerating but we will never see a Great Forest of Caledonia.
different species, ecology evolves, some slowly some aided by introductions by man. How long is it before an introduced species (plant of animal) becomes part of the "local" ecology?
is something introduced by the Romans or Norman's or later now naturalized to the UK? Onions, Cabbages, Apples, Potatoes, Sika, Fallow, Sycamore, Beech, Cherry, Elm, Turnips, Rhododendron, and on and on and on
If it's beavers, they become part of the " local ecology " five minutes after being released !
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
2-5 potentially
Sealgair nam fiadh
Well-Known Member
The answer to that is above my pay grade
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Multiple things removed Scotlands trees. Initially to clear land for farming and to use timber for building and fuel. Then for making charcoal for iron smelting in places like Glen Etive before large scale coal mining replaced charcoal as the fuel of choice.
A lot of timber was used in the Royal Navy and Merchant Navy as the British Expanded. God alone knows how many Oak trees went into a ship like HMS Victory, but ships were used from the 1600’s up till late 1800’s. Then huge fishing fleets all used huge quantities of scots pine, larch and oak. Most of the little harbours all the way around the Scottish coast had huge quantities of fishing boats all fishing for cod and herring, all along with potatoes were exported to low countries in wooden barrel transported in wooden ships (and all the Dutch half round roof tiles on old east coast houses came back as ballast on the same boats).
As for the clearances. This was a mix of political and economic. Post Jacobite rebellion the likes of the Duke of Sutherland and Duke of Argyl thought that large scale sheep farming would be far more profitable that having lots of little tenant farmers growing crops and cattle. They also had a dire for labour in the new colonies in the Americas as well as in Industrial Mills in Central belt and further south. So pretty much the tenants were given their marching orders and the offer of new land in the New World or the prospects of work in the mills. Some went willingly, some with a little persuasion. Some ended up as indentured labour for the rest of their lives, sone prospered, many died.
The sheep project didn’t last very long. Sheep are really a dryland animal. Most sheep in the British Isles were on the Eastern downlands and fens - hence the very large churches built by all the wool barrons in the middle ages.
Scotland was cattle country - think Rob Roy etc with Scottish cattle being exported down to England and the continent by Drovers who walked them down.
By the mid 1800’s Sheep in Scotland were producing the wool to make the landowners wealthy. Wool production went to Australia and cheap cotton from India and Americas in many ways replaced wool.
Fortunately Queen Victoria had married the German Prince Albert who rather enjoyed to sport of stalking deer and chamois in the Alps. British Gentlemen hunted, but on horseback with hounds after foxes and deer.
But stalking became the height of fashion. Mang of Scottish Lairds - now pretty much broke with little in the way of rents from tenants (whom they had kicked off the land) nor income from sheep, were only too happy to lease or sell of parcels of land to wealthy industrialists and aristocrsts all of whom wanted to emulate Prince Albert and Queen Victoria.
The opening of the railways made Scotland very accessible. Indeed the likes of Earl of Caithness and Duke of Sutherland funded the railway from Inverness up the Helmsdale, across the flow country to Thurso. At the same time selling of little estates (each of several thousand acres) as sporting estates with river frontage for Salmon and hill ground for Deer.
And hence the Scottish Sporting estate was born.
A lot of timber was used in the Royal Navy and Merchant Navy as the British Expanded. God alone knows how many Oak trees went into a ship like HMS Victory, but ships were used from the 1600’s up till late 1800’s. Then huge fishing fleets all used huge quantities of scots pine, larch and oak. Most of the little harbours all the way around the Scottish coast had huge quantities of fishing boats all fishing for cod and herring, all along with potatoes were exported to low countries in wooden barrel transported in wooden ships (and all the Dutch half round roof tiles on old east coast houses came back as ballast on the same boats).
As for the clearances. This was a mix of political and economic. Post Jacobite rebellion the likes of the Duke of Sutherland and Duke of Argyl thought that large scale sheep farming would be far more profitable that having lots of little tenant farmers growing crops and cattle. They also had a dire for labour in the new colonies in the Americas as well as in Industrial Mills in Central belt and further south. So pretty much the tenants were given their marching orders and the offer of new land in the New World or the prospects of work in the mills. Some went willingly, some with a little persuasion. Some ended up as indentured labour for the rest of their lives, sone prospered, many died.
The sheep project didn’t last very long. Sheep are really a dryland animal. Most sheep in the British Isles were on the Eastern downlands and fens - hence the very large churches built by all the wool barrons in the middle ages.
Scotland was cattle country - think Rob Roy etc with Scottish cattle being exported down to England and the continent by Drovers who walked them down.
By the mid 1800’s Sheep in Scotland were producing the wool to make the landowners wealthy. Wool production went to Australia and cheap cotton from India and Americas in many ways replaced wool.
Fortunately Queen Victoria had married the German Prince Albert who rather enjoyed to sport of stalking deer and chamois in the Alps. British Gentlemen hunted, but on horseback with hounds after foxes and deer.
But stalking became the height of fashion. Mang of Scottish Lairds - now pretty much broke with little in the way of rents from tenants (whom they had kicked off the land) nor income from sheep, were only too happy to lease or sell of parcels of land to wealthy industrialists and aristocrsts all of whom wanted to emulate Prince Albert and Queen Victoria.
The opening of the railways made Scotland very accessible. Indeed the likes of Earl of Caithness and Duke of Sutherland funded the railway from Inverness up the Helmsdale, across the flow country to Thurso. At the same time selling of little estates (each of several thousand acres) as sporting estates with river frontage for Salmon and hill ground for Deer.
And hence the Scottish Sporting estate was born.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Parts of the highlands lent themselves to different sporting pursuits with a few jewels which could offer good driven grouse, stags, and salmon fishing with others due to terrain classed as deer Forests with walked -up shooting and a bit of fishing thrown in.
No real changes bar some estates over last twenty years or so due to change of ownership concentrated on improving grouse numbers and reducing grazing and tick burdens were driving viable, the rest pretty much the preserve of the deer and owned for that reason.
Common factor between both were deer and now neither due to management techniques desirable in the numbers that habitat control can bring in favourable conditions.
Bar heather burning and supplementary feeding and control or not of numbers deer pretty much looked after themselves especially in the remote areas or remaining wildernesses upt north so rewilding can only happen in selected areas as rest is pretty wild.
Can only see trees as the demise of some species and long term deer cannot be one but just not as many as not desired like the sportsmen of the past wanted, real biarch but there it is.
No real changes bar some estates over last twenty years or so due to change of ownership concentrated on improving grouse numbers and reducing grazing and tick burdens were driving viable, the rest pretty much the preserve of the deer and owned for that reason.
Common factor between both were deer and now neither due to management techniques desirable in the numbers that habitat control can bring in favourable conditions.
Bar heather burning and supplementary feeding and control or not of numbers deer pretty much looked after themselves especially in the remote areas or remaining wildernesses upt north so rewilding can only happen in selected areas as rest is pretty wild.
Can only see trees as the demise of some species and long term deer cannot be one but just not as many as not desired like the sportsmen of the past wanted, real biarch but there it is.
Back to our mr waddington who cited back then in his report to the crown commissioners a similar thought but also elaborated on the role of the then foresters who were then preservers of game and the hallowed trees, but a different culture who favoured hunting
Except that Scots Pine didn’t die out. There were huge expanses of it within the last 1000 years. Again, not as continuous as the Caledonian Forest fantasists would believe, but also not as fragile as you imply.
But the broader point is that regardless of just how extensive pine forest was, some sort of woodland covered the vast majority of the Highlands. Arguing about whether it was pine forest, birch woodland, alder scrub, hazel thickets or oak wood is semantics.
Sealgair nam fiadh
Well-Known Member
Bit of Scots pine information, no huge expanses and seemingly fragile.
Similar threads
