Goretex, Emperor's new clothes?

My goretex harkila trousers (2 pairs of pro hunters), both leaked like a sieve from new on the hill. They refused to replace despite the evidence - never bought harkila nor goretex since.

I vote for sympatex personally, also much better washing wise
 
This feels like chapter 2, and I'm sorry if this sounds a bit "know it all" but some of you seemed to enjoy part 1 so I will give you my thoughts on layering, seeing as @caberslash bought it up.

There are two things in his post I don't subscribe to - firstly that you don't need a waterproof shell (we don't live in the tropics) and secondly that cotton is a good mid layer fabric.

Water transmits body heat 30 times faster than air. Get wet next to skin and you will loose body heat at an unsustainable rate. Hence the importance of a waterproof outer layer and the ability to move sweat out of the system through a breathable membrane.

There are several schools of thought on next to skin and middle layers. The first is that you should never wear anything that will hold any moisture. This is why Polypropylene (0.04% moisture retention) and Polyester (0.2% moisture retention) are the two main fabrics used for underwear. These yarns ensure you're dry next to skin and any moisture/sweat is transmitted outward which allows the breathable membrane to do it's thing and get that moisture to the outside.

The other school of thought is a more old fashioned one and involves wool. Wool will normally retain 20% to 30% of it's own weight in moisture, so not great in theory. The bonus wool has is a feeling of warmth (for those who can wear it next to skin) and the lanolin gives it antimicrobial properties that prevent the build up of bacteria - smell. That absorption in wool also stops that clammy feeling when next to skin, soaking up any sweat on the surface of the skin and making you feel dry rather than clammy which you sometimes feel in Polyester or Polyprop. Many can't wear lambs wool next to skin, but most can wear merino.

Bacteria, mainly in urine (a component of sweat) will absorb its way into a yarn if it can and once absorbed is a bugger to get out. Remember the old nylon shirts - nylon absorbs 2% of it's own weight in water and bacteria once it got in was very difficult to get out without a boil wash - you used to put a "clean" shirt back on after a 40 degree wash and once your body heat had warmed up the bacteria again it immediately started to whiff. On the Polyesters and Polyprops most brands use an antimicrobial finish on the yarns to try to prevent this. Some work, some don't. All are eventually washed out.

I've done lots of trials sending one boat out on a 4 week leg in Polyester underwear with various antimicrobial finishes and another in merino. They will not change their underwear over that 4 week period (no washing facilities other than baby wipes) and the crew in the Polyester are always horrifically smelly when they get ashore and the whole boat has to be washed and aired before the shore crew will get on it. The crew in merino smell, but you can live with them for a few beers before they have to go and shower. I will happily wear one set of merino underwear for a week on the hill. Can't do that with any manmade fibre I have found yet.

So wool is a good alternative and has it's plus points, but it's heavy and that 20% to 30% absorption makes it even heavier, so I don't like it for heavy middle layer.

Cotton is the enemy. Never wear anything cotton on any layer, not even something with a cotton content. Cotton will absorb up to 100% of it's own weight in water, has no natural oils, sweat will be trapped by it rather than pass through it and you will be damp all day. When you stand still cotton will very quickly sap body heat and you will become cold. Don't even entertain a pair of cotton boxers.

The compromise I like - and it's very personal - is a 200 gram merino wool next to skin - everywhere, including socks and hat. Mid layer is polyester fleece, somewhere between 200 gram and 250 gram. Quite often the fleece will start the day in my back pack and be put on when I've got to the top of the hill. If there are no hills involved I start the day wearing it. If there's a high seat involved I might have a second 180 gram microfleece on as well. But the merino is always there. Layering gives you huge flexibility - like changing gear.

Many people don't appreciate that you can stay dry. You have to get your outer layer and middle layers right and it takes a bit of effort changing gear during a varied day (like taking your mid layer off for a long climb and putting it back on again at the top), but provided you are using the right garments and fabrics it's all possible - and life is much more comfortable and enjoyable as a result. I have met plenty of old stalkers over the years who are almost crippled with arthritis, much of it due to living in wet tweeds over a cotton shirt all winter, constantly putting up with it because that what you did back then. The world and clothing technology has thankfully moved on and we don't need to put ourselves through that anymore.

So the outer layer is just one part of the clothing jigsaw - no point in buying an expensive Gore Tex jacket if you layer up with cotton underneath it - it's just not going to make you happy. Getting your laying system right is key to being comfortable.

Not sure who said "theres no such thing as bad weather, just inadequate clothing" but they were right.
 
Another very informative post, thank you!

Out of interest, have you used Paramo gear in anger? Would be very interested to hear your thoughts on it/results of testing!
No, not used Paramo I'm afraid. I do understand their technology however.

Paramo have a very close link with Nikwax and rely on the Nikwax DWR system to make the garment waterproof without the use of a membrane. Not having a membrane makes their clothing more breathable than Gore Tex or any other membrane based fabric and for those people who are constantly active, like the hill walking brigade, it makes a lot of sense.

However - and there's always a compromise - there are two issues. Firstly the water head on the fabric is not great - fine for dealing with rain but start crawling through the wet stuff or sitting/kneeling down on it and it's going to struggle. It might cope when it's new but as the DWR ages it's going to leak. The Nikwax system requires regular reapplication of their DWR treatment to keep it working well, something a membrane garment does not to keep it waterproof. Personally I would rather have the reliability of a membrane in my garments and know that crawling about and kneeling isn't going to be an issue and I'm not the sort of chap who's disciplined enough to keep up the regular maintenance required to keep them at their best.

DWR is an issue at the moment. DWR (durable water repellancy) is a chemical finish that's applied to the outside of a fabric to make the water bead off. In a membraned garment it is NOT the waterproofing element, it just helps prevent the outer face fabric from wetting out and getting heavy. DWR wears out and can be reapplied by washing or spraying and then heat activating in something like a tumble dryer. Most DWR's used by fabric makers are Flouro based and over the past 15 years they have slowly been watered down by international regulation because of the Flouro content. The original stuff (C8) was great and would last for months at sea. The C4's we are using now have been watered down by about 80% and I'm now lucky to get a week out of a garments before the DRW has had it (this is non stop use at sea). Within a few years we will be at C0 which will be next to useless. Non Flouro based DWR's have no oleophobic properties so garments get contaminated more easily and get much dirtier as a result. The industry has not really found a good solution yet - not one that can be laminated to a membrane and seam taped. We are using much finer yarns for our outers to minimise the absorption and wetting out that will inevitably take place when the DRW is no longer effective - I can't ask a bloke on a race boat to put his foulies in the tumble dryer.

A bit of a meandering answer to the question but hopefully helpful.
 
This feels like chapter 2, and I'm sorry if this sounds a bit "know it all" but some of you seemed to enjoy part 1 so I will give you my thoughts on layering, seeing as @caberslash bought it up.

There are two things in his post I don't subscribe to - firstly that you don't need a waterproof shell (we don't live in the tropics) and secondly that cotton is a good mid layer fabric.

Water transmits body heat 30 times faster than air. Get wet next to skin and you will loose body heat at an unsustainable rate. Hence the importance of a waterproof outer layer and the ability to move sweat out of the system through a breathable membrane.

There are several schools of thought on next to skin and middle layers. The first is that you should never wear anything that will hold any moisture. This is why Polypropylene (0.04% moisture retention) and Polyester (0.2% moisture retention) are the two main fabrics used for underwear. These yarns ensure you're dry next to skin and any moisture/sweat is transmitted outward which allows the breathable membrane to do it's thing and get that moisture to the outside.

The other school of thought is a more old fashioned one and involves wool. Wool will normally retain 20% to 30% of it's own weight in moisture, so not great in theory. The bonus wool has is a feeling of warmth (for those who can wear it next to skin) and the lanolin gives it antimicrobial properties that prevent the build up of bacteria - smell. That absorption in wool also stops that clammy feeling when next to skin, soaking up any sweat on the surface of the skin and making you feel dry rather than clammy which you sometimes feel in Polyester or Polyprop. Many can't wear lambs wool next to skin, but most can wear merino.

Bacteria, mainly in urine (a component of sweat) will absorb its way into a yarn if it can and once absorbed is a bugger to get out. Remember the old nylon shirts - nylon absorbs 2% of it's own weight in water and bacteria once it got in was very difficult to get out without a boil wash - you used to put a "clean" shirt back on after a 40 degree wash and once your body heat had warmed up the bacteria again it immediately started to whiff. On the Polyesters and Polyprops most brands use an antimicrobial finish on the yarns to try to prevent this. Some work, some don't. All are eventually washed out.

I've done lots of trials sending one boat out on a 4 week leg in Polyester underwear with various antimicrobial finishes and another in merino. They will not change their underwear over that 4 week period (no washing facilities other than baby wipes) and the crew in the Polyester are always horrifically smelly when they get ashore and the whole boat has to be washed and aired before the shore crew will get on it. The crew in merino smell, but you can live with them for a few beers before they have to go and shower. I will happily wear one set of merino underwear for a week on the hill. Can't do that with any manmade fibre I have found yet.

So wool is a good alternative and has it's plus points, but it's heavy and that 20% to 30% absorption makes it even heavier, so I don't like it for heavy middle layer.

Cotton is the enemy. Never wear anything cotton on any layer, not even something with a cotton content. Cotton will absorb up to 100% of it's own weight in water, has no natural oils, sweat will be trapped by it rather than pass through it and you will be damp all day. When you stand still cotton will very quickly sap body heat and you will become cold. Don't even entertain a pair of cotton boxers.

The compromise I like - and it's very personal - is a 200 gram merino wool next to skin - everywhere, including socks and hat. Mid layer is polyester fleece, somewhere between 200 gram and 250 gram. Quite often the fleece will start the day in my back pack and be put on when I've got to the top of the hill. If there are no hills involved I start the day wearing it. If there's a high seat involved I might have a second 180 gram microfleece on as well. But the merino is always there. Layering gives you huge flexibility - like changing gear.

Many people don't appreciate that you can stay dry. You have to get your outer layer and middle layers right and it takes a bit of effort changing gear during a varied day (like taking your mid layer off for a long climb and putting it back on again at the top), but provided you are using the right garments and fabrics it's all possible - and life is much more comfortable and enjoyable as a result. I have met plenty of old stalkers over the years who are almost crippled with arthritis, much of it due to living in wet tweeds over a cotton shirt all winter, constantly putting up with it because that what you did back then. The world and clothing technology has thankfully moved on and we don't need to put ourselves through that anymore.

So the outer layer is just one part of the clothing jigsaw - no point in buying an expensive Gore Tex jacket if you layer up with cotton underneath it - it's just not going to make you happy. Getting your laying system right is key to being comfortable.

Not sure who said "theres no such thing as bad weather, just inadequate clothing" but they were right.
This and your previous post are quite possibly the best replies on any subject I’ve ever seen on this site. Thank you for the time and effort put into both.
 
This feels like chapter 2, and I'm sorry if this sounds a bit "know it all" but some of you seemed to enjoy part 1 so I will give you my thoughts on layering, seeing as @caberslash bought it up.

There are two things in his post I don't subscribe to - firstly that you don't need a waterproof shell (we don't live in the tropics) and secondly that cotton is a good mid layer fabric.

Water transmits body heat 30 times faster than air. Get wet next to skin and you will loose body heat at an unsustainable rate. Hence the importance of a waterproof outer layer and the ability to move sweat out of the system through a breathable membrane.

There are several schools of thought on next to skin and middle layers. The first is that you should never wear anything that will hold any moisture. This is why Polypropylene (0.04% moisture retention) and Polyester (0.2% moisture retention) are the two main fabrics used for underwear. These yarns ensure you're dry next to skin and any moisture/sweat is transmitted outward which allows the breathable membrane to do it's thing and get that moisture to the outside.

The other school of thought is a more old fashioned one and involves wool. Wool will normally retain 20% to 30% of it's own weight in moisture, so not great in theory. The bonus wool has is a feeling of warmth (for those who can wear it next to skin) and the lanolin gives it antimicrobial properties that prevent the build up of bacteria - smell. That absorption in wool also stops that clammy feeling when next to skin, soaking up any sweat on the surface of the skin and making you feel dry rather than clammy which you sometimes feel in Polyester or Polyprop. Many can't wear lambs wool next to skin, but most can wear merino.

Bacteria, mainly in urine (a component of sweat) will absorb its way into a yarn if it can and once absorbed is a bugger to get out. Remember the old nylon shirts - nylon absorbs 2% of it's own weight in water and bacteria once it got in was very difficult to get out without a boil wash - you used to put a "clean" shirt back on after a 40 degree wash and once your body heat had warmed up the bacteria again it immediately started to whiff. On the Polyesters and Polyprops most brands use an antimicrobial finish on the yarns to try to prevent this. Some work, some don't. All are eventually washed out.

I've done lots of trials sending one boat out on a 4 week leg in Polyester underwear with various antimicrobial finishes and another in merino. They will not change their underwear over that 4 week period (no washing facilities other than baby wipes) and the crew in the Polyester are always horrifically smelly when they get ashore and the whole boat has to be washed and aired before the shore crew will get on it. The crew in merino smell, but you can live with them for a few beers before they have to go and shower. I will happily wear one set of merino underwear for a week on the hill. Can't do that with any manmade fibre I have found yet.

So wool is a good alternative and has it's plus points, but it's heavy and that 20% to 30% absorption makes it even heavier, so I don't like it for heavy middle layer.

Cotton is the enemy. Never wear anything cotton on any layer, not even something with a cotton content. Cotton will absorb up to 100% of it's own weight in water, has no natural oils, sweat will be trapped by it rather than pass through it and you will be damp all day. When you stand still cotton will very quickly sap body heat and you will become cold. Don't even entertain a pair of cotton boxers.

The compromise I like - and it's very personal - is a 200 gram merino wool next to skin - everywhere, including socks and hat. Mid layer is polyester fleece, somewhere between 200 gram and 250 gram. Quite often the fleece will start the day in my back pack and be put on when I've got to the top of the hill. If there are no hills involved I start the day wearing it. If there's a high seat involved I might have a second 180 gram microfleece on as well. But the merino is always there. Layering gives you huge flexibility - like changing gear.

Many people don't appreciate that you can stay dry. You have to get your outer layer and middle layers right and it takes a bit of effort changing gear during a varied day (like taking your mid layer off for a long climb and putting it back on again at the top), but provided you are using the right garments and fabrics it's all possible - and life is much more comfortable and enjoyable as a result. I have met plenty of old stalkers over the years who are almost crippled with arthritis, much of it due to living in wet tweeds over a cotton shirt all winter, constantly putting up with it because that what you did back then. The world and clothing technology has thankfully moved on and we don't need to put ourselves through that anymore.

So the outer layer is just one part of the clothing jigsaw - no point in buying an expensive Gore Tex jacket if you layer up with cotton underneath it - it's just not going to make you happy. Getting your laying system right is key to being comfortable.

Not sure who said "theres no such thing as bad weather, just inadequate clothing" but they were right.
What is the "Jock itch" score?
 
What is the "Jock itch" score?
Pretty low if you get the good long fibre NZ merino as used by a brand like Icebreaker. Some other brands use cheaper far east "merino" which has shorter fibres and tends to be a bit more itchy. I wear a pair of polyester boxers underneath, so no jock itch at all. I do however find that if I have a long drive home with the heater on in the truck I do get a bit itchy so tend to get changed if I'm driving any distance - I get the same with lambswool shooting socks after a game day - can't stand it - it's the heat that causes the problem, I'm fine when it's cold.
 
The issue with what he's saying is that all breathable membranes work on vapour pressure differential. VP is made up from a combination of heat and humidity (heat being the bigger driver), not pressure and humidity as he explains in the video. Providing your body heat at 37 degrees is hotter than the outside it will always breathe out (and if it's hotter than 37 on the outside you're not going to be wearing a jacket). Humid air gets pushed through the membrane and if there is water on the outer face of the jacket it just joins it - condensing with it, not getting blocked by it. It's how all breathable membranes work, whether microporus or hydrophyllic. If what he's saying is correct then there would be no such thing as a breathable garment that works in the rain made from any fabric. We know that's not true.

Really interesting stuff, hope you don't mind a follow up...

Does this mean that the idea of having Goretex under a smock is a non-starter? Would that prevent the heat gradient the membrane needs?
 
Really interesting stuff, hope you don't mind a follow up...

Does this mean that the idea of having Goretex under a smock is a non-starter? Would that prevent the heat gradient the membrane needs?
I’ve been told that goretex under a smock was a solution devised by the army in the very early days of issue goretex.

The early goretex jackets had few or no pockets, which made them of very limited use to soldiers. They were also very noisy. They came up with the idea of wearing them under smocks so they could still use the pockets, and keep quiet.

It subsequently became a feature rather than a bug…
 
Another very informative post, thank you!

Out of interest, have you used Paramo gear in anger? Would be very interested to hear your thoughts on it/results of testing!
I think Paramo is actively dangerous for stalkers in very wet conditions when the temperatures hovers just above freezing.

If you have to crawl, push through dense wet vegetation, or are exposed to continuous rain for hours (or days), it saturates. And then you loose heat extremely fast.

I have been involved in one life threatening event where someone was out for about 7 hours in continuous rain, strong wind, temperature around 4 degrees. They were in paramo, and adamant it was fine. It was not fine, and it was a close run thing at the end, getting them off the hill and warmed up. Fit, healthy, and with lots of hill experience. When we peeled them out of the jacket, they were drenched. The rest of us (in goretex) were chilly, but not in any danger.
 
I think Paramo is actively dangerous for stalkers in very wet conditions when the temperatures hovers just above freezing.

If you have to crawl, push through dense wet vegetation, or are exposed to continuous rain for hours (or days), it saturates. And then you loose heat extremely fast.

I have been involved in one life threatening event where someone was out for about 7 hours in continuous rain, strong wind, temperature around 4 degrees. They were in paramo, and adamant it was fine. It was not fine, and it was a close run thing at the end, getting them off the hill and warmed up. Fit, healthy, and with lots of hill experience. When we peeled them out of the jacket, they were drenched. The rest of us (in goretex) were chilly, but not in any danger.

Very interesting, thanks. Was that individual wearing much else by way of layering?

I’m hoping to get up to Scotland next week for some time on the hill and was going to take a Paramo smock, but pair it with a base layer and then a lightweight Buffalo on top of the base, but under the smock…
 
Really interesting stuff, hope you don't mind a follow up...

Does this mean that the idea of having Goretex under a smock is a non-starter? Would that prevent the heat gradient the membrane needs?
Mungo is spot on. The only reason they did it was they wanted to wear the Gore Tex because it worked so well but they didn’t have the pockets they needed.

Ideally nothing should be worn over it. There shouldn’t be any need to for us anyway.

Interestingly, you should also avoid having anything with a membrane in it underneath the Gore Tex, such as shelled middle layer or fleeces with internal membranes. You don’t get enough VP differential between the mid layer shell and the Gore Tex so condensation forms between the layers.
 
I wear devold merino base layers on the hill. Fjaelraven trousers, Surplus army fleece zip top and Austrian sympatex m65 jacket. When warm the fleece goes in the day pack, when sunny, the M65 jacket goes. In the day pack and the fleece becomes the outer layer.

Does the job. Little money, me happy.
 
Very interesting, thanks. Was that individual wearing much else by way of layering?

I’m hoping to get up to Scotland next week for some time on the hill and was going to take a Paramo smock, but pair it with a base layer and then a lightweight Buffalo on top of the base, but under the smock…
Medium fleece, some sort of synthetic shirt, merino under layer.

I’m sure you’ll be fine - just know when to pull the plug when it starts to get really wet.
 
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