Goretex, Emperor's new clothes?

[AGR]

View attachment 340806

Only 13lbs? Must be part polystyrene!

 

[Heym SR20]

What are Deerhunter jackets like these days?

 

[Cootmeurer]

In Britain, there seems to be an obsession with staying 'dry'.

If you have ever worked in the tropics (equator) where humidity often exceeds 100%, then you know it to be a fools errand.

100% dry from the outside equals boil in the bag for the wearer.

You read my mind. I wore several generations of military issue goretex while doing Hurricane response deployments in the Caribbean. An outer garment that sheds driving hurricane rains is magnificent, but we always opened them up ASAP because of the heat and humidity.

 

[eldon]

I think Paramo is actively dangerous for stalkers in very wet conditions when the temperatures hovers just above freezing.

If you have to crawl, push through dense wet vegetation, or are exposed to continuous rain for hours (or days), it saturates. And then you loose heat extremely fast.

I have been involved in one life threatening event where someone was out for about 7 hours in continuous rain, strong wind, temperature around 4 degrees. They were in paramo, and adamant it was fine. It was not fine, and it was a close run thing at the end, getting them off the hill and warmed up. Fit, healthy, and with lots of hill experience. When we peeled them out of the jacket, they were drenched. The rest of us (in goretex) were chilly, but not in any danger.

Yep I can associate with that.

I had a Paramo jacket that I thought was great and so took it on a few days solo winter walk of a section of the Pennine Way. It soon became apparent that the DWR wanted refreshing as it rained continually for x3 days. I was camping and carrying a heavy rucksack so any pressure points i.e. shoulder straps and hipbelt, created a direct route through.
On the third day the rain turned to sleet and then snow.
I had been soaked throughout, except when camped (spare clothes and down bag in a dry bag etc), and decided to call it a day from a safety perspective.

The saving grace throughout was a Helly Hansen base layer with a wet but warm Snugpak pile shirt on top.

Pile is a great item even when wet through; highly recommended.

 

[User00053]

Wore paramo jackets for a few seasons with berghaus over trousers for shoot days on hill/ moor in the wettest of conditions kept you warm and dry plus light, would not want to crawl in one though. Edit gortex over trousers.

 

[1894]

Icebreaker merino long sleeve top ordered, I'll begin the run on the retailers.

Just watch the moths - mine is now nearly a string vest

 

[Mungo]

In Britain, there seems to be an obsession with staying 'dry'.

If you have ever worked in the tropics (equator) where humidity often exceeds 100%, then you know it to be a fools errand.

100% dry from the outside equals boil in the bag for the wearer.

Also, I have yet to see a practical garment that seals the holes for the users arms/legs/head(s?)...

The only system that is practical for the UK is layering with a water repellent (not 'proof') shell, followed by a wool/cotton blend of garments (my choice would be pullover with neck zip, followed by shirt and baselayer).

I grew up in the tropics, and worked for many years on the equator, in very damp conditions. You’re right about one thing: getting wet there doesn’t really matter and is largely unavoidable.

I moved to Scotland and thought I could use more or less the same approach. Exactly as you suggest: WR shell and wool cotton blend underneath. It was absolutely miserable, and I spent about 5 years hating every minute of winter.

Eventually I listened to friends, ditched every bit of cotton and got goretex top and bottom. Absolute revelation. Completely transformed the experience. Very seldom uncomfortable now.

The idea that you can’t stay dry is nonsense, and I think primarily a belief among those who don’t have or refuse to get good kit.

As the man said: there’s no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.

 

[Mungo]

I use Sitka Gear on the hill (which is 3 layer laminated Gore Tex), and lately I have been trying Kuiu which is not Gore Tex, it's Dermizaz (a membrane made by Toray in Japan, but again using the same 3 layer laminated construction). The Kuiu is super comfortable and really nice to wear - more so than the Sitka. It is definitely as breathable as my Sitka Gear but it's not as durable, already suffering a bit more damage in the field after 18 months. I will probably buy Kuiu again because it's a bit quieter than Sitka and more comfortable - having a stretch outer shell, but it still can't beat Gore Tex on the durability front.

Which Sitka jacket?

 

[Ronin]

usually in wet / cold it’s merino base layer and t shirt then arcteryx jacket and over trouser

Had these for a loooong time - no leaks until recently on the knee of the over trouser

If I get warm, I open the pit zips to cool

 

[NigelM]

Which Sitka jacket?

I think it’s called a storm jacket. It’s their heaviest anyway. You have to be a bit careful with Sitka and Kuiu as some of their jackets are very light weight and not robust enough for our environment. The Kuiu one I have is the Yukon, again their heaviest (which is still very light).

 

[Tazz]

For the past 35 years I have made waterproof gear to keep sailors dry when ocean racing. Ocean racing is as extreme as it gets - we're not talking rain for 8 hours when on the hill, we are talking buckets of water being thrown at you on legs that take 4 weeks with no opportunity to get dry and warm if you get wet - I've done both - trust me on that one. And we are talking water, not snow or ice, which are relatively easy to deal with.

Over the years I have tested every membrane out there worth testing. Tests taking place back to back on 10's of people on the ocean, not one or two people and not only in a lab. The results prove that Gore Tex is the most durably waterproof, breathable membrane out there at the moment. That's not me saying that, it's the testers and the customers voting for it - usually unanimously. That's also backed up by about 20,000 garments a year sold and a returns rate of less than 0.3%.

Break the statement down a bit. There is nothing MORE waterproof than Gore Tex. There are a few membranes AS waterproof as Gore Tex but none MORE waterproof. There are membranes that are more breathable than Gore Tex, but of the ones that are more breathable none of them are as waterproof or as durable. Finally, there is nothing out there that is more durably waterproof than Gore Tex - IF the laminate is chosen correctly for the application and IF the garments is constructed properly - those last two IF's are nothing to do with the membrane, they are all about how the brand making the final product choose to use the Gore Tex membrane which is out of Gore Tex control to a large extent.

I will not use Gore Tex drop lined garments on the hill as they are not durable enough - the membrane is laminated to a very thin backer which then hangs loose between an outer fabric and a lining - as used by Harkila, Schoefel etc. I will only use a 3 layer laminated garment where the membrane is laminated on both sides with a strong outer fabric and the backer. This gives the membrane the protection it needs from the rough stuff we push and crawl through. This construction method is as important as the membrane itself. I will use drop lined garments standing on the peg as you're not asking for great durability in that scenario, you're asking for comfort and the ability to keep you dry and deal with a bit of sweat as you walk to your peg. Take a drop lined jacket beating however and it will not be waterproof for long.

I use Sitka Gear on the hill (which is 3 layer laminated Gore Tex), and lately I have been trying Kuiu which is not Gore Tex, it's Dermizaz (a membrane made by Toray in Japan, but again using the same 3 layer laminated construction). The Kuiu is super comfortable and really nice to wear - more so than the Sitka. It is definitely as breathable as my Sitka Gear but it's not as durable, already suffering a bit more damage in the field after 18 months. I will probably buy Kuiu again because it's a bit quieter than Sitka and more comfortable - having a stretch outer shell, but it still can't beat Gore Tex on the durability front.

As for Gore Tex being a marketing gimmick - the bloke is talking bollox.

The issue with what he's saying is that all breathable membranes work on vapour pressure differential. VP is made up from a combination of heat and humidity (heat being the bigger driver), not pressure and humidity as he explains in the video. Providing your body heat at 37 degrees is hotter than the outside it will always breathe out (and if it's hotter than 37 on the outside you're not going to be wearing a jacket). Humid air gets pushed through the membrane and if there is water on the outer face of the jacket it just joins it - condensing with it, not getting blocked by it. It's how all breathable membranes work, whether microporus or hydrophyllic. If what he's saying is correct then there would be no such thing as a breathable garment that works in the rain made from any fabric. We know that's not true.

The Gore Tex patent ran out in 1997 so the change to a PE membrane has nothing to do with that as he suggests. The reason they are changing technologies is that the Flouro component of Polytetraflouroethelene has been banned in California and is likely to be banned in the rest of the US and Europe in around 2028 - dates not yet confirmed. The new membrane is still being tested. It was released to the fashion market this autumn but they are still not making Gore Tex Pro for the active outdoor market in the new membrane yet as it's still being tested - by me amongst others. Tests so far suggest that the new membrane is as waterproof and is as durable, but will be very slightly less breathable. From what I've seen so far it will still be the most durably waterproof, breathable membrane available and we will continue to use it in our gear - that's after 18 months of testing and one lap of the planet so far - we like to get 30,000 miles on 10 or more sets before we sign anything off. We are not wedded to Gore Tex and can use any membrane we choose to - this would be a perfect opportunity to change if we felt it was right to do so but we are not going to - that should tell you something.

Hope that helps.

Yes that^^^

 

[Rake Aboot]

The only thing I have that works when wet is my (very old) Buffalo top

 

[Mungo]

I think it’s called a storm jacket. It’s their heaviest anyway. You have to be a bit careful with Sitka and Kuiu as some of their jackets are very light weight and not robust enough for our environment. The Kuiu one I have is the Yukon, again their heaviest (which is still very light).

I’ve generally found most US waterproof gear to be very light.

My theory is that they don’t move around as much as we do - they spend a lot more time sitting in stands. I also think a lot of their hunting is in much drier places. Either just dry, or well below freezing, so water proofing isn’t so critical.

 

[Marrajack1]

No, not used Paramo I'm afraid. I do understand their technology however.

Paramo have a very close link with Nikwax and rely on the Nikwax DWR system to make the garment waterproof without the use of a membrane. Not having a membrane makes their clothing more breathable than Gore Tex or any other membrane based fabric and for those people who are constantly active, like the hill walking brigade, it makes a lot of sense.

However - and there's always a compromise - there are two issues. Firstly the water head on the fabric is not great - fine for dealing with rain but start crawling through the wet stuff or sitting/kneeling down on it and it's going to struggle. It might cope when it's new but as the DWR ages it's going to leak. The Nikwax system requires regular reapplication of their DWR treatment to keep it working well, something a membrane garment does not to keep it waterproof. Personally I would rather have the reliability of a membrane in my garments and know that crawling about and kneeling isn't going to be an issue and I'm not the sort of chap who's disciplined enough to keep up the regular maintenance required to keep them at their best.

DWR is an issue at the moment. DWR (durable water repellancy) is a chemical finish that's applied to the outside of a fabric to make the water bead off. In a membraned garment it is NOT the waterproofing element, it just helps prevent the outer face fabric from wetting out and getting heavy. DWR wears out and can be reapplied by washing or spraying and then heat activating in something like a tumble dryer. Most DWR's used by fabric makers are Flouro based and over the past 15 years they have slowly been watered down by international regulation because of the Flouro content. The original stuff (C8) was great and would last for months at sea. The C4's we are using now have been watered down by about 80% and I'm now lucky to get a week out of a garments before the DRW has had it (this is non stop use at sea). Within a few years we will be at C0 which will be next to useless. Non Flouro based DWR's have no oleophobic properties so garments get contaminated more easily and get much dirtier as a result. The industry has not really found a good solution yet - not one that can be laminated to a membrane and seam taped. We are using much finer yarns for our outers to minimise the absorption and wetting out that will inevitably take place when the DRW is no longer effective - I can't ask a bloke on a race boat to put his foulies in the tumble dryer.

A bit of a meandering answer to the question but hopefully helpful.

I had a similar craic yesterday. Weather up here was horrendous and I wore paramo beating all day and it was perfect. On the hill in Scotland in similar weather it leaked at elbows during crawl in and where rifke sling and day pack touched I presume cos the technology can’t work properly
I use a merino base layer and fleece or wool as next layer when using any jacket

 

[308rws]

My dress for the hill is usually as follows:

• Base layer - Brynje base layer.
• Addnl layer if below zero - Keela merino.
• Top - Buffalo Special 6 shirt.
• Bottom- Bergans breeks.
• Top - Bergans anorak. I backpack sling my rifle, so most of the time my smock is hood over the moderator with the arms tied around the stock.
• Gloves, hat and socks for weather.
• Boots and gaiters (usually unzipped at the back for ventilation).
• Fanny pack with small flask of soup, food, folding foam seat, cold weather hat and gloves.

I think every individual's ability to regulate body temperature is a personal thing. Key to layering is to have the discipline to layer up as soon as you stop and layer down after 10-15mins of moving off again. Use the heat your body generates when moving not only for warmth but to assist dry perspiration and saturated outer garments. Wear garments which are both quick to take on and off and quick to dry in sun/wind. If the weather turns seriously bad - keep moving and get off the hill safely. No deer is worth risking anyone's life over.

 

[Frank Homes]

I think it’s called a storm jacket. It’s their heaviest anyway. You have to be a bit careful with Sitka and Kuiu as some of their jackets are very light weight and not robust enough for our environment. The Kuiu one I have is the Yukon, again their heaviest (which is still very light).

Nigel,
Firstly thanks for posting about this subject, all very informative. Out of interest how many of the top outdoor clothing companies have their garments made in China and if so is there a quality problem?

 

[NigelM]

Nigel,
Firstly thanks for posting about this subject, all very informative. Out of interest how many of the top outdoor clothing companies have their garments made in China and if so is there a quality problem?

I think most brands make in China now. Arcteryx were made at home in Canada initially but they are also in China now. All the best technical brands are there.

There is no quality issue in China. Their technology is as good or better than anywhere in Europe or the US. They also have the great benefit of lots of people. When we made in the UK our production lines had 10 to 14 girls on them and each one did 8 to 12 operations. The Chinese factories have 50 to 100 girls on a production line and each does one or two operations. They are more consistent as a result. Quality is usually better than European factories (if you can find one). But there is a BUT...

Where companies get into trouble is in the writing of tight specifications and inspection. The Chinese will do exactly as they are asked, but if you don't specify something they will make it up, usually in the quickest and easiest way, which is often not the right way. You have to write very tight detailed specs. You then have to have your own people in the factory during the production runs independent testing, reinforcing those specs and have a really good final inspection process where at least 5% of garments are 100% checked randomly across the batch against those specs. Do all this well and you will get great product. Do it badly and you will open a 40 foot container in Europe full of crap after having paid for the goods in full. More than a few have made this mistake. Then management have to decide whether to write off £000's or whether they might get away with putting it to market.

Few have got it right first time which is why your hear about quality having gone down hill after a brand has moved it's production to China. It's nothing to do with China, it's about the company learning how to deal with the Chinese and improving their own processes to cope with remote production facilities.

 

[Frank Homes]

I think most brands make in China now. Arcteryx were made at home in Canada initially but they are also in China now. All the best technical brands are there.

There is no quality issue in China. Their technology is as good or better than anywhere in Europe or the US. They also have the great benefit of lots of people. When we made in the UK our production lines had 10 to 14 girls on them and each one did 8 to 12 operations. The Chinese factories have 50 to 100 girls on a production line and each does one or two operations. They are more consistent as a result. Quality is usually better than European factories (if you can find one). But there is a BUT...

Where companies get into trouble is in the writing of tight specifications and inspection. The Chinese will do exactly as they are asked, but if you don't specify something they will make it up, usually in the quickest and easiest way, which is often not the right way. You have to write very tight detailed specs. You then have to have your own people in the factory during the production runs independent testing, reinforcing those specs and have a really good final inspection process where at least 5% of garments are 100% checked randomly across the batch against those specs. Do all this well and you will get great product. Do it badly and you will open a 40 foot container in Europe full of crap after having paid for the goods in full. More than a few have made this mistake. Then management have to decide whether to write off £000's or whether they might get away with putting it to market.

Few have got it right first time which is why your hear about quality having gone down hill after a brand has moved it's production to China. It's nothing to do with China, it's about the company learning how to deal with the Chinese and improving their own processes to cope with remote production facilities.

Thanks Nigel very interesting.

 

[Ubique52]

Fantastic posts @NigelM

What do you make of 50/50 Merino and Poly mix base layers?

Best or worst of both worlds?

 

[NigelM]

Fantastic posts @NigelM

What do you make of 50/50 Merino and Poly mix base layers?

Best or worst of both worlds?

50/50 works for our application. We will not use it ocean racing as the smell still gets trapped in the Poly, but stalkers tend to keep themselves a bit cleaner than sailors in most cases.

You will find 100% a bit nicer to wear, but the price point for 50/50 is often very tempting. Just watch out for the ones that call themselves merino and are only 20%.