Government responds to 2023 firearms licensing consultation

[enfieldspares]

Of course there has been no environmental impact assessment done by DEFRA on the environmental impact of the manufacture and transport of steel shot into the UK from where it is made. The recent court ruling on the offshore oilfield now requires that not just local environmental impact be considered but "removed" environmental impact. It is my belief that the environmental impact of manufacturing steel shot is greater than the environmental impact of manufacturing lead shot. Factor in the additional effect of replacing old guns that cannot use steel with new made guns that can also.

 

[Liveonce]

This isn’t a criticism of BASC or any other shooting organisation for lack of effort - but it seems there are no receptive ears in the present government to any thoughts, proposals or recommendations that could be put forward by our sporting organisations - no matter how well reasoned or argued such points may be.

Which is why all legal options must be kept on the table, to take the government to task, exactly why their is a fighting fund.

Time also to put whole page adverts in the news papers detailing how the police failures led to the Plymouth tragedy. Let the government know we will not just take it without a fight, unlike we have always done in the past.

 

[timbrayford]

There is an ongoing phased voluntary move away from the use of lead shot for live quarry shooting, namely for the sake of the myriad bird species mistakenly ingesting lead shot as grit and suffering sub-lethal and lethal impacts as a result. This is an animal welfare and conservation concern that we should be taking responsibility for amidst public interest in nature recovery.

Wildfowlers have been using lead alternatives for over two decades. As regards your own concerns I would recommend attending a BASC workshop with your own guns.

See events labelled 'try sustainable ammunition day' here:

Home

The original deer management qualification. Evolved. Discover the UK’s only 100% Online DSC1 Theory with BASC. Enrol now GSC1 Online Assessments Want to improve your knowledge of game shooting? Book your course All upcoming events

events.basc.org.uk

Wildfowling and driven shooting are poles apart, both in terms of environment and proximity of bystanders and participants. Sustainable ammunition is great in theory but promoting blatantly inferior steel devalues the argument.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Wildfowling and driven shooting are poles apart, both in terms of environment and proximity of bystanders and participants. Sustainable ammunition is great in theory but promoting blatantly inferior steel devalues the argument.

As regards steel shot - you are of course entitled to your opinion but your opinion is not a fact and others using steel shot for decades for live quarry might disagree with you.

As regards wildfowling and game shooting yes they are different shooting disciplines.

For wildfowling the following advice is given in BASC's code of practice for wildfowl quarry species:

a. Pochard – no take – targeted conservation effort required.
b. Pintail – take a maximum of two birds per day – targeted conservation effort required.
c. Woodcock – delay shooting until late November where resident woodcock are present.
d. Scaup – show restraint, site-based considerations required.
e. Goldeneye – delay shooting until October where resident goldeneye are present.
f. European white-fronted goose – take a maximum of two birds per person, per day.
g. Common snipe – delay shooting until 1 September where resident snipe are present

Sustainable Shooting Code of Practice

Read our code of practice on shooting wildfowl, waders and rail species sustainably in England, Scotland and Wales.

basc.org.uk

As regards game shooting see the following:

Madden J.R. & Sage, R.B. 2020. Ecological Consequences of Gamebird Releasingand Management on Lowland Shoots in England: A Review by Rapid EvidenceAssessment for Natural England and the British Association of Shooting andConservation. Natural England Evidence Review NEER016. Peterborough: NaturalEngland.

Ecological Consequences of Gamebird Releasing and Management on Lowland Shoots in England - NEER016

publications.naturalengland.org.uk

 

[webley701]

The subject of non-lead shot isn’t central to this thread (although I could disagree, with justification, with the stance BASC has taken in this matter).

Back on topic - I’d be interested to learn how the Home Office arrived at its conclusions given the results of the consultation & prior discussions with relevant parties. Are the shooting organisations able to press the Home Office to reveal their ‘thought process’? Or will it remain as transparent as mud?

 

[Liveonce]

The subject of non-lead shot isn’t central to this thread (although I could disagree, with justification, with the stance BASC has taken in this matter).

Back on topic - I’d be interested to learn how the Home Office arrived at its conclusions given the results of the consultation & prior discussions with relevant parties. Are the shooting organisations able to press the Home Office to reveal their ‘thought process’? Or will it remain as transparent as mud?

transparent as how they arrived at the new fees, as they appear not to be accountable to the voters that put them in government. What a country this is fast becoming.

 

[timbrayford]

As regards steel shot - you are of course entitled to your opinion but your opinion is not a fact and others using steel shot for decades for live quarry might disagree with you.

As regards wildfowling and game shooting yes they are different shooting disciplines.

For wildfowling the following advice is given in BASC's code of practice for wildfowl quarry species:

a. Pochard – no take – targeted conservation effort required.
b. Pintail – take a maximum of two birds per day – targeted conservation effort required.
c. Woodcock – delay shooting until late November where resident woodcock are present.
d. Scaup – show restraint, site-based considerations required.
e. Goldeneye – delay shooting until October where resident goldeneye are present.
f. European white-fronted goose – take a maximum of two birds per person, per day.
g. Common snipe – delay shooting until 1 September where resident snipe are present

Sustainable Shooting Code of Practice

Read our code of practice on shooting wildfowl, waders and rail species sustainably in England, Scotland and Wales.

basc.org.uk

As regards game shooting see the following:

Madden J.R. & Sage, R.B. 2020. Ecological Consequences of Gamebird Releasingand Management on Lowland Shoots in England: A Review by Rapid EvidenceAssessment for Natural England and the British Association of Shooting andConservation. Natural England Evidence Review NEER016. Peterborough: NaturalEngland.

Ecological Consequences of Gamebird Releasing and Management on Lowland Shoots in England - NEER016

publications.naturalengland.org.uk

You are quite welcome to trash your barrels on steel shot and bag a few beaters, stops and picker's up with your ricochets if you so wish. It however is not for me. I don't know what lead substitute I shall end up with, but it certainly won't the abominable steel.

 

[jall55]

You are quite welcome to trash your barrels on steel shot and bag a few beaters, stops and picker's up with your ricochets if you so wish. It however is not for me. I don't know what lead substitute I shall end up with, but it certainly won't the abominable steel.

Ricochets on driven days - where are you shooting ?

Have you tried steel Tim ? We have this year and i have no real dog in the fight but interestingly our averages over the course of a season and over 5000 shots have been just slightly better than with lead - same guns - same birds

 

[Pete_Cambs]

News of a shooting in kent this evening that resulted in a lady dying and it sounds a lot like it was done with a legally owned firearm, likely a shotgun so I’m pretty sure whatever is in the consultation is a given now…. Section one and no storage at home if not an all out ban driven by Labour

 

[webley701]

News of a shooting in kent this evening that resulted in a lady dying and it sounds a lot like it was done with a legally owned firearm, likely a shotgun so I’m pretty sure whatever is in the consultation is a given now…. Section one and no storage at home if not an all out ban driven by Labour

No storage at home effectively is an all out ban.

 

[Pete_Cambs]

No storage at home effectively is an all out ban.

Effectively yes but would allow the government to avoid compensation is my theory.

 

[Liveonce]

Effectively yes but would allow the government to avoid compensation is my theory.

Have to agree with you they will not want to repeat the the costs associated with the pistol ban, probably far greater cost given the number of shotguns in private ownership.

it really is time to stop playing nice, writing to MPs hoping it will make a difference when history has shown it is very unlikely to do so. Tell the public just how Plymouth came about via new paper adverts and social media. Run a public media campaign.

Use the courts if they take away are civil liberties by not needing a warrant. Hell we may not like wild justice but it has worked for them.

The impact of moving sec 2 to sec 1 will destroy shooting in this country and why, what would in achieve in the way of improving public safety? absolutely nothing.

 

[Pete_Cambs]

The impact of moving sec 2 to sec 1 will destroy shooting in this country and why, what would in achieve in the way of improving public safety? absolutely nothing.

Of course it will have no meaningful impact on public safety but guns and shooting sports are just an easy target in this country as there just isn’t enough good PR out there over the years. Many people don’t know you can even own a gun of any sort in this country and there only knowledge of the countryside is countryfile once a week!

You just have to look at the stats for homicides in the UK…..



Unsure if Plymouth would fall into 2020/21 or 2021/22 but either way the sad reality is those deaths make up less than 1% in either reporting year.

And my assumption is this chart will only cover murders and manslaughter thus missing out other preventable deaths caused by things like dangerous driving or dangerous dog attacks etc where the defendant would be charged under a lesser offence.

 

[timbrayford]

Ricochets on driven days - where are you shooting ?

Have you tried steel Tim ? We have this year and i have no real dog in the fight but interestingly our averages over the course of a season and over 5000 shots have been just slightly better than with lead - same guns - same birds

Mixed farms with Oak woods. Regarding steel, neither my gun shop, cartridge manufacturers nor ASI were prepared to warranty my barrels against damage by steel shot, nor I suspect will BASC if I ask them?

 

[webley701]

Have to agree with you they will not want to repeat the the costs associated with the pistol ban, probably far greater cost given the number of shotguns in private ownership.

it really is time to stop playing nice, writing to MPs hoping it will make a difference when history has shown it is very unlikely to do so. Tell the public just how Plymouth came about via new paper adverts and social media. Run a public media campaign.

Use the courts if they take away are civil liberties by not needing a warrant. Hell we may not like wild justice but it has worked for them.

The impact of moving sec 2 to sec 1 will destroy shooting in this country and why, what would in achieve in the way of improving public safety? absolutely nothing.

At the time of the pistol ban I was involved with a couple of the pistol disciplines at national/international level & lost not only some of my treasured possessions but also years of time spent training etc. There’s still a bitter taste in my mouth regarding it. That aside and to come to one of your points (also made by Pete_Cambs) the avoidance of paying compensation must be very attractive, especially given the considerable combined value of shotguns in legal circulation plus the value of directly related items.

Unfortunately we have to deal with a government made up of individuals with various axes to grind & little sympathy for anything they ‘personally’ don’t like or see the point of. Frankly they are perhaps just an emanation of a more widespread malaise in society where ‘live & let live’ has been replaced by ‘ban (anything) if it doesn’t affect that particular individual’; sadly this “personally I’d ban…” attitude has recently displayed on this forum by a call to ban all vehicles in cities & towns.

One more upbeat note may be - generally all sorts of proposals are made by government departments (or the civil servants that run them) with little knowledge of the real issues nor the practicality of implementing them. The cold light of reality tends to shrivel the more ridiculous ones.

 

[andyk]

I can’t see them going ahead with a full ban or requiring shotguns to be stored at a dealer/ground. It’s one of those ideas that gets trotted out and then withdrawn when it’s seen to be impractical. I believe it was considered for pistols (which are smaller and usually easier to remove an essential component from) and more recently for 50 cals, it’s been rejected both times. It also fails to account for people shooting in multiple places or shooting live quarry.

However, I can readily see good reason being required. Hopefully, as I said above, that could be introduced while keeping s2 and be a good reason for shotguns generally, not each gun. If that comes up in future consultations, it may be worth shooters making the point that evidence of regular attendance at a ground, not necessarily membership, would be appropriate - much as evidence of booking stalks is for a FAC.

The trouble with good reason is it could well have helped in some of these situations. The implication in the Plymouth Inquest was that Davison didn’t use the gun much, if at all, and had just said ‘clay pigeons’ to get the gun.

That can be contrasted with this warrantless entry suggestion of which I’m unaware of any situation where police have tried to seize guns, been unable, and then they’ve been used to kill. I’m not an encyclopaedia of shootings, so perhaps there are examples, I’m just yet to hear of one.

People can talk of Judicial Review but it’s not the silver bullet it’s implied to be. WJ have made good use of it because they’ve been challenging ministerial actions taken under primary legislation - fertile ground for review as the action can be struck down if the Judge accepts the minister has acted other than in accordance with the primary legislation. There is almost no route to challenge primary legislation, as any ban or further restrictions would be. Warrantless entry would engage the right to privacy and family life under the HRA/ECHR, so that is a potential area for a challenge. Even then, all a successful challenge would yield is a declaration that the legislation is incompatible with the HRA/ECHR and an invitation for the government to look to make it compatible. It wouldn’t have the legislation struck down and the government can ignore the declaration.

Regrettably, lobbying is the only avenue available in a lot of these situations.

 

[Pete_Cambs]

One more upbeat note may be - generally all sorts of proposals are made by government departments (or the civil servants that run them) with little knowledge of the real issues nor the practicality of implementing them. The cold light of reality tends to shrivel the more ridiculous ones.

Normally in more sensible times I’d agree with this but the current labour government have already shown they won’t let inconvenient truths get in the way of what they want to do, especially when it comes to rural issues.

Sadly last nights shooting in Kent will only fan the flames if it does indeed turn out to be as I suspect, a shotgun legally owned by an SGC holder.

 

[timbrayford]

Rather simply reclassifying S2 as S1 I hope that the lawful use of firearms is subject to an entirely new act. Time after time the shooting community has become the whipping boys for inept FLDs

 

[Kane01]

News of a shooting in kent this evening that resulted in a lady dying and it sounds a lot like it was done with a legally owned firearm, likely a shotgun so I’m pretty sure whatever is in the consultation is a given now…. Section one and no storage at home if not an all out ban driven by Labour

News is saying it was a 9mm Handgun, so unlikely it was legally owned at least

 

[Rake Aboot]

News is saying it was a 9mm Handgun, so unlikely it was legally owned at least

Sounds atrocious to say this , but I hope it was an illegal weapon